So the new firmware update for MK3 includes 3 relative modes, but none of them work with Ableton. Did Arturia do any testing of this update before they uploaded them? There’s no update to the manuals or any documentation to show how they work but I tried all three and all of them cause rotary based parameters in ableton to not work. It should be totally straightforward to have endless knobs work endlessly in Ableton. And we really should have documentation to go along with this change. Please let us know when this is getting updated properly.
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I didn’t mean to come off offensively, I genuinely was asking if it was tested to validate that its working with Ableton properly. I also work in software and I know that sometimes these things aren’t always fully tested before they go out. I have gone through the documentation, read the FAQ for both minilab 3 and the keylab 3 and watched the videos, and also have reached out to support and still haven’t found any resolution for the relative mode with ableton. The best I can find in some areas is that it “should” work with relative mode 2, but when I do that it goes in reverse polarity and only alternates between 100% each way (you can’t get any sort of individual middle ground). I had the Minilab mk2 and it worked fine so I’m not sure why this has now been broken or how to fix it.
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Exact same issue and honestly I’m pretty mad about it. Considering making a video telling people not to buy this thing until it’s fixed, and honestly I’m shocked more people aren’t talking about it.
Just FYI the thing people are saying with relative mode 2 is that you can have your device set to a profile that’s using that mode on all of the knobs and then manually midi map, for example, Instruments>Operator>Bass>Basic Fanatik Bass to the 8 knobs. I can’t believe I’m going to continue explaining this because it’s absolutely ridiculous how poorly this was implemented, not to mention not explained, but bear with me. When you switch on midi map mode, click one of the knobs, and turn it LEFT so the mode gets auto set to Relative (2’s Comp). Or just turn the knob and manually set it to that mode at the bottom. Do that for all 8 knobs. Now if you switch between any of the devices with the same 8 knob form factor, it will work as it should. However, the moment you switch to a device with a DIFFERENT form factor (for the macro controls) all of your MIDI settings for the knobs will reset and they will stop working, even if you were to then go back to one that was working. Congratulations for reading this far and I’m sorry for putting this useless information into the world, but hey, I’m not the one who made it this way.
Please do the video, it will be very much appreciated!
This is not the only flaw the product has. They only did a template for their Analog Lab and none for the products of their own V Collection, which is a terrible miss
I can add some additional context here as well. I have been back and forth with Arturia support asking them how the relative modes are supposed to work with Ableton Live. I have been unable to get a clear answer from them aside from “relative 1” should work with “value scaling mode” in Ableton.
To be honest I have yet to test this since they sent that response - because I’m pretty sure I tested that combination beforehand and it didn’t work. I have asked but have not had confirmation that Arturia has actually tested this in any way that would be similar to the Implemenatation of their standard absolute mode that maps to the “Ableton Minilab 3” script default. It’s still a mystery to me why this is done this way given that the knobs are not absolute they are infinite encoders.
It’s really a shame. Not only does it not work, but you still can’t change the knobs to be relative mode for the default profile as there is nowhere to save the setting. If I use a user profile the transport controls no longer work, which is one of the things I use nonstop.
It’s a controller that was obviously never actually used in the context it was made to work in. I had a similar sort of issue with my Keylab MkII - the main encoder knob couldnt be set to launch a scene in session mode even though the encoder could select it Wha? It’s one of the first things you would do if you tried to use the controller in session mode. I don’t think anyone who knew how to use Live tested it at Arturia.
I love Arturia software products but there seems to be a serious disconnect between design and implementation with their controllers.
Hello I’m Aurélien, QA at Arturia !
There are a lot of different issues here.
I’ll do my best to help you and find a way to make it work in your workflow.
- To clarify the relative modes:
- They are only available in user program for now.
- To use them in Ableton you have to setup your knobs in Relative mode in the MCC, store the template in a user program and then load this program on your Minilab. After that, you need to manually map these knobs to Ableton parameters and select the correct relative mode (ableton propose a lot of different modes to match with all devices).
- Relative1 mode in the MCC works correctly with Relative (BinOffset) in Ableton.
- Relative2 mode in the MCC works correctly with Relative (2’s Comp) in Ableton.
As it is manual MIDI mapping, they can’t adapt from a Live device to another. For that, you have to use the script.
- Using Value Scaling in DAW mode:
- In DAW mode, the Minilab 3 encoders are absolute, but Ableton’s Value Scaling option makes them very close to relative encoders.
- To use it, go to Preferences/MIDI and select Value Scaling in the Takeover Mode dropdown.
With this mode, you’ll see that there is no jump anymore and knobs join the parameters value very smoothly.
- For the transport bank which is not working in user program, we are award of this bug and be sure that it’ll be fixed in the next update.
For now the workaround is to map a pad bank manually in the MCC (for example bank B to keep the Bank A free for playing). You can use MCU message to send transport to Live as you can see on the screenshot (you also can change the pad color to have the rec pad red for example).
After that, go to MIDI preferences and choose MackieControl Surface.
Hope this helped you a bit !
Thank you Aurélien for these workarounds. They are helpful.
It’s great to hear that these things will be fixed in a future update.
Thank you for this. Will try these workarounds.
I think the overall consensus is that at least for Ableton - given the fact that the encoders are physically endless, there’s no sense to need to have a pickup mode in Ableton and so they should just “catch” and go regardless of the starting position. So, hopefully there will be a firmware update that allows the encoders to work natively endless in Ableton both in DAW and user modes.
Hey, we Cubase users are having the same problems. Endless encoders set to absolute mode instead of relative just makes zero sense and is infuriating when using it.
For now I’ve hacked the script supplied to at least put the knobs and sliders into a ‘scaled’ mode to try and avoid very very annoying jumps as soon as I touch a knob or slider.
If this hasn’t been implemented from the beginning, then I’m thinking there are real underlying problems with the hardware because why would you just not set them to ‘relative’ mode, supply a script and make your users happy?!
HI @stripealipe and welcome to our Sound Explorers Forum.
Thanks for the feedback, i’m sure our team will be interested to see it!
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And yeah, really hope the team simply manage to look into implementing and putting out a firmware update with ‘relative’ encoders set and ready to go in the ‘DAW’ patch, not just the ‘USER’ patch.
And without wanting to hijack this Ableton thread, for the Arturia Cubase script the knobs had no designation and hence defaulted to jumpy values being transmitted and interpreted.
Over in the Cubase forums, someone asked if this could be changed and a couple of the users in a thread there gave suggestions, one being to set the encoders to .setValueTakeOverModePickup() but I preferred the other option for Cubase being .setValueTakeOverModeScaled()
Not ideal, but better than your implementation. But please please give us a relative encoder firmware option…
Does anybody know if a firmware update with relative mode as the standard mode for the knobs is on the way? It’s driving me absolutely crazy.
I’d like also to report that I have tried to set a Relative mode in Cubase 13 Pro, and it does not work (it gives some strange erratic moves of the corresponding controllers in GUI, but not what is expected).
Besides, I have just looked at the MIDI Center manual for Minilab 3, and neither the screenshot nor the text for knobs do not mention the dropdown list Option (with Absolute, Relative 1, 2, 3 options); the manual date is 16 November 2022.
Hi @dmitry-kabanov ,
It’s in the Midi Control Center. See attached image.
I don’t know the right mode for your DAW. Your DAW also have to support it.
Yes, I see it in the interface of the MIDI center: that’s why I have reported that none of the Relative modes works as expected in Cubase 12 but gives some strange chaotic results.
I have also mentioned in my previous mentioned that the manual for the MIDI center for Minilab 3 was not updated to reflect that there is the Options dropdown (Section 3.6, page 16). Hopefully, Arturia support will report it to the developement/technical writing departments.
UPDATE 2024-02-03: Corrected Cubase 13 to 12.