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Author Topic: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5  (Read 471 times)

saiirus

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Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« on: July 22, 2019, 11:16:50 pm »
Dear forum,

Just bought an Audiofuse to go along with a portable configuration and am a bit disappointed (to say the least) with the latency performances.

Let me detail my previous configuration and the new one and the results with the exact same projects.

Previous
Values with stable operation (no cracks):
7ms/5ms @256 samples @48kHz
HP fixed PC from 2006
i3 CPU
6GB RAM
SSD disk (has no effect on latency but made it a lot quicker)
RME Fireface 400 (not a bad one I know) through Firewire 400
Win7

Current
Values with stable operation (no cracks):
26ms/24ms @1024 samples @48kHz
Asus laptop R510V
i7 6700HQ CPU
8GB RAM
SSD disk (has no effect on latency but made it a lot quicker)
Audiofuse - last firmware 1.1.1 - through USB 3.0 or 2.0 - safe mode - power mode Mixdown
Win10

The 2 setups are dedicated to music so super clean, only music softwares (+ Photoshop...)

There is a 10 years difference between the two setup and even if I know that I come from a fix PC to a laptop, I am still very disappointed to adapt my habits to this (reduce number of plugins when I record // transfer them to hardware solutions - expensive ....).

As a summary, here is my question:
> Are these results realistic due to configurations? Or is there something wrong?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 11:23:11 pm by saiirus »

MajorFubar

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2019, 01:21:43 pm »
I would have thought you should get better than that. Your newer machine is better specified than the six year old Macbook Pro I use without issues, but that's the vagaries of Windows laptops for you: some work well for our kind of purposes but some just don't, no matter how much you faff with the various settings.

Hopefully a Windows user will be around shortly to perhaps give you better advice that can help solve your issues.
2011 iMac 27" 2013 MBP 13" V Collection 6 Analog Lab 4 KeyLab 88 KeyLab 49 KeyStep

LBH

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 06:11:40 pm »
Hi saiirus and welcome to Arturia forums.

FYI: I don't have Audiofuse. So i can't go in details with this. But i assume you have the manual.

You don't tell which load that give crackles.

It's hard to say what's wrong based on the informations you give.

According to this your CPU is from 2015 and have the base frequency 2.6 GHz:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/88967/intel-core-i7-6700hq-processor-6m-cache-up-to-3-50-ghz.html
What about your old CPU? How are the two CPUs scoring in both single core multicore performance compared to each other?
Are only one CPU overloaded?

I assume your new processor should be better. The question is how much better for what you wan't to do.
No doubt you get less performance for your money in a laptop. A laptop also heat up faster, and turboboost is affeted by heat. Have you checked how hot your Laptop is? Base frequency is very important, especially when working with virtual synths.
But you should have much lower latency - i would say.

I believe both the mentioned soundcards are very good. No matter what, then i doubt a soundcard will make that huge difference in latency, unless there is somthing wrong somewhere.
I presume you are using correct drivers.

Have you tested both soundcards on the same machines, with the same load? This could help to tell, if the issue is with the laptop or the soundcard.
Have you run tests to find out what causes the latency?

You have set your laptop to High Performance mode in the powerplan settings?
Have you tried to run windows with priority for both programs and for background services so see if there is a difference in the performance?

Have you tried different cables and USB ports?
Have you unchecked to shut down USB to save power?

Have you changed any BIOS settings? On some setups some settings helps, while they at other setups make things bad.

If you find nothing is wrong, and find no solutions, then i suggest you contact Arturia support through your account.

MokaT

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2019, 04:57:35 pm »
Hi saiirus,

Quote
7ms/5ms @256 samples @48kHz
Quote
26ms/24ms @1024 samples @48kHz

Can you please compare using the same ASIO buffer size ?
You can configure your buffer size in the Arturia ASIO Control Panel, or in the new AFCC 2.0 in the settings accessible from the upper right corner.

Thanks.

saiirus

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 10:54:11 pm »
Dear all,

Thank you very much for your detailed answers !

Here are my answers

FYI: I don't have Audiofuse. So i can't go in details with this. But i assume you have the manual.

Yes I do and it is running well.

Quote
You don't tell which load that give crackles.

Don't know how to summarize, I know my projects can be a bit heavy but it was working just fine with previous config.
3 to 5 VST instruments (Waves or Halion...)
3 to 5 guitar/bass tracks with Two Notes Torpedo Wall of Sound VST
1 Superior Drummer 2.0 with a kit of less than 1gb samples
+ vocals but it already cracks with the above mentioned tracks

Quote
It's hard to say what's wrong based on the informations you give.

According to this your CPU is from 2015 and have the base frequency 2.6 GHz:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/88967/intel-core-i7-6700hq-processor-6m-cache-up-to-3-50-ghz.html
What about your old CPU? How are the two CPUs scoring in both single core multicore performance compared to each other?

Thanks for the link. I have made a comparison on this website. There is no match I think,

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/compare.html?productIds=88967,46472

Quote
Are only one CPU overloaded?

I don't know how to check this. If I monitor CPU performance (via cubase tool for instance) it runs at 30/40% and goes for 1 ms or so to 10ms giving cracks from time to time.
I can play the same project with the integrated soundcard without cracks (of course with a latency coming from hell). Don't know if it gives any additional information.

Quote
I assume your new processor should be better. The question is how much better for what you wan't to do.
No doubt you get less performance for your money in a laptop. A laptop also heat up faster, and turboboost is affeted by heat. Have you checked how hot your Laptop is? Base frequency is very important, especially when working with virtual synths.

My laptop is reasonnably hot. Just like a laptop (I had hotter ones). Shall I control temp of CPU somewhere? And if so, is there any critical value?

Quote
I believe both the mentioned soundcards are very good. No matter what, then i doubt a soundcard will make that huge difference in latency, unless there is somthing wrong somewhere.
I presume you are using correct drivers.

I do have the very last updates from audiofuse

Quote
Have you tested both soundcards on the same machines, with the same load? This could help to tell, if the issue is with the laptop or the soundcard.
Have you run tests to find out what causes the latency?

Well, the only possibility would be to test Audiofuse on previous computer because I can't plug my Fireface on the laptop (no firewire) and also because I have sold it now!
I just did a comparison desktop + RME / laptop + Audiofuse

Quote
You have set your laptop to High Performance mode in the powerplan settings?

Yes

Quote
Have you tried to run windows with priority for both programs and for background services so see if there is a difference in the performance?

No, I am going to try, that is interesting

Quote
Have you tried different cables and USB ports?

Yes, all 3

Quote
Have you unchecked to shut down USB to save power?

I will try!

Quote
Have you changed any BIOS settings? On some setups some settings helps, while they at other setups make things bad.

I have checked all BIOS possibilities but this one is very poor. So I had nothing to change.

Thanks again for your feedback, I'll give it a try and tell you

saiirus

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 11:34:14 pm »
I have done some further tests thanks to your advices.

Switched off the power save mod on USB (no effect)
Priority "Realtime" to Cubase (I would say slight improvement)

Then when looking at the performances in task manager I discovered that my cracks tend to be linked to Wifi (without any browser opened, because I know it affects). I disabled the few processes that were in the startup and could access internet (Adobe update, this kind of stuff).
I still have some cracks. If I turn OFF Wifi it is getting better but there are still some cracks that makes recording impossible without freezing everything (which is a bit annoying).

CPU works at 19/21%. RAM 41%. I think I am far...


saiirus

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2019, 11:36:10 pm »
Hi saiirus,

Quote
7ms/5ms @256 samples @48kHz
Quote
26ms/24ms @1024 samples @48kHz

Can you please compare using the same ASIO buffer size ?
You can configure your buffer size in the Arturia ASIO Control Panel, or in the new AFCC 2.0 in the settings accessible from the upper right corner.

Thanks.

Hi MokaT, sorry I forgot to answer you.

I cannot test it anymore (Fireface is sold) but as far as I remember the values were close to each other. Only cracks differed.

LBH

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2019, 01:22:29 am »
Quote
Are only one CPU overloaded?
I don't know how to check this. If I monitor CPU performance (via cubase tool for instance) it runs at 30/40% and goes for 1 ms or so to 10ms giving cracks from time to time.
Here is one way to do it.
Open the task manager and select the CPU tab.
In the bottom at that window click "Open ressource monitor".
Now you should be able to see the load on each CPU core. Play your project and see if one of the CPU cores is overloaded.

I don't know what Cubases performance meter messure. Is it the load on the cpu core that have the most load or what?


Have you tried to take one VST out one at a time to see if the crakles disapears? And play a single track at a time? This can help to find what causes the issue. In example a single track with one VST that overload a single CPU core is enough to give issues.


In generel it look like your new CPU should do better in any task. You can't do anything about the heat on a new laptop unless you get a better cooling system. But heat can affect performance.


You can test your CPU with this Intel tool: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/19792/Intel-Processor-Diagnostic-Tool
This should be able to tell if your CPU cores work like they should.

LatencyMon can also help to troubleshoot: https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon
It might require some time to understand how to use it.


I  can't rule out you have issues with your DAW setup. Cubase 5 is rather old. Does it work well with Windows 10? This could be a reason for your issues i assume. Have you tried to run your Cubase 5 in Windows 7 compatibilty mode? I think i forgot to mention this in my first reply.

I also can't rule out you have Windows issues.

I would test Audiofuse on your other computer, and see how it performs there. It's a part of troubleshooting.

WIFI can cause audio issues yes. But it's clearly not the main source to your issues.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 01:27:26 am by LBH »

saiirus

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2019, 09:13:00 am »
Quote
Are only one CPU overloaded?
I don't know how to check this. If I monitor CPU performance (via cubase tool for instance) it runs at 30/40% and goes for 1 ms or so to 10ms giving cracks from time to time.
Here is one way to do it.
Open the task manager and select the CPU tab.
In the bottom at that window click "Open ressource monitor".
Now you should be able to see the load on each CPU core. Play your project and see if one of the CPU cores is overloaded.
I have checked and none of the CPU is overloaded. They can have different level of usage, but never high in % (only when I start cubase).

Quote
I don't know what Cubases performance meter messure. Is it the load on the cpu core that have the most load or what?

Well actually there is one meter for ASIO and DISK usage. ASIO meter shows the cracks.


Quote
Have you tried to take one VST out one at a time to see if the crakles disapears? And play a single track at a time? This can help to find what causes the issue. In example a single track with one VST that overload a single CPU core is enough to give issues.
I will certainly be able to identify the heaviest one, but I would like to be able to use the same as before (especially because I have not started to mix and it is going to be a disaster with plugins like Izotope Ozone...

Quote
You can test your CPU with this Intel tool: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/19792/Intel-Processor-Diagnostic-Tool
This should be able to tell if your CPU cores work like they should.

Done the tests, everything passed fine.

Quote
LatencyMon can also help to troubleshoot: https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon
It might require some time to understand how to use it.

I have checked and had a standard answer (below).
After that I have disabled CPU throttling.
I don't know what is DPC routine I have to admit  :-[
I will check for BIOS updates.

Quote
I  can't rule out you have issues with your DAW setup. Cubase 5 is rather old. Does it work well with Windows 10? This could be a reason for your issues i assume. Have you tried to run your Cubase 5 in Windows 7 compatibilty mode? I think i forgot to mention this in my first reply.

I have done it as well. Seems to improve slightly the situation.

Quote
I also can't rule out you have Windows issues.

This is a fresh new install, with nothing but the concerned programs installed. I am really confident with this point.

Quote
would test Audiofuse on your other computer, and see how it performs there. It's a part of troubleshooting.

Not able to do it right now, but I will test it in a couple of days yes.

Quote
WIFI can cause audio issues yes. But it's clearly not the main source to your issues.

After all, with all the above mentioned actions, the number of cracks has reduced significantly but there are still some with the targetted latency (while not ideal for drum recording, I think I can live with it):
128 samples safe mode
Input 5,397 ms
Output 4,490 ms

When I monitor this, CPU has no spikes, nothing seems overloaded but the ASIO meter in Cubase.
Thanks to all your advices and tests performed, I tend to think that it is a software issue, either Cubase 5 compatibility with win 10 or ASIO driver that doesn't work properly with the setup... ???

« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 09:14:56 am by saiirus »

LBH

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2019, 12:49:55 pm »
I agree, that the cubase 5 compatibilty with windows 10 might have an impact. Are you using ASIO guard, if it excist in Cubase 5. If so, then perhaps try to disable it. Or the other way around. See if that make a difference.

The ASIO driver should work with Windows 10. Still good if you test it on your other PC.

I can't rule out, that Windows at the time being have some issues. If so, then some windows update at some time could help.

I think with a CPU 2.6 GHz base frequency, then a 128 samples buffer at 44100 or 48000 Hz is very good for real time performance with many virtual instruments in projects. Even a buffer at 256 samples can be good.

The point in disabling plugins is to find out if they cause issues. They can also have issues, so it's about them. Are they updated and compatible with Windows 10?

Are all  your applications 64 bit? A bridge may cause issues.

saiirus

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2019, 04:13:35 pm »
I agree, that the cubase 5 compatibilty with windows 10 might have an impact. Are you using ASIO guard, if it excist in Cubase 5. If so, then perhaps try to disable it. Or the other way around. See if that make a difference.

This option doesn't exist in Cubase 5. Seems to be in later versions.

Quote
The ASIO driver should work with Windows 10. Still good if you test it on your other PC.

I can't rule out, that Windows at the time being have some issues. If so, then some windows update at some time could help.

It was updated from last week, but installed the very last ones again... No change
I have also updated to the very last BIOS for my laptop

Quote
I think with a CPU 2.6 GHz base frequency, then a 128 samples buffer at 44100 or 48000 Hz is very good for real time performance with many virtual instruments in projects. Even a buffer at 256 samples can be good.

The point in disabling plugins is to find out if they cause issues. They can also have issues, so it's about them. Are they updated and compatible with Windows 10?

I have tried all the possible configurations to point out a plugin that would cause this, without any change.

Quote
Are all  your applications 64 bit? A bridge may cause issues.

No everything is 32 bits because some plugins are, but it used to work fine with other config.

To definitely solve the software hypothesis, I have installed Ableton 9.5 64 bits which is much newer. Exact same issues.
I even noticed during this test that I still have some rare cracks in 1048 samples. I guess there is really something wrong with communication between the Audiofuse and the computer...


LBH

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2019, 04:36:49 pm »
I can suggest you try to uninstall the Audiofuse device in windows device manager, and remove the driver. Then reinstall after a restart.

Again - It would be good to try Audiofuse on your old PC.

Which version on windows 10 are you using? And which update is the latest (a KBxxxxxxx code)?

Are you saying your DAW is running 32 bit? In that case you are restricted to 4GB RAM. Have you checked if you have memory issues? Windows 10 is all 64 bit now.

EDIT: Are everything you use installed on a correct connected internal SSD? EDIT END
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 05:32:59 pm by LBH »

saiirus

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2019, 07:29:32 pm »
I can suggest you try to uninstall the Audiofuse device in windows device manager, and remove the driver. Then reinstall after a restart.

Did it, nothing changed...

Quote
Again - It would be good to try Audiofuse on your old PC.

Whenever I can, I will.

Quote
Which version on windows 10 are you using? And which update is the latest (a KBxxxxxxx code)?

I don't know how to get this KB code.
I can just tell you that it is Win 10 home 1903 (which is apparently the very last update).

Quote
Are you saying your DAW is running 32 bit? In that case you are restricted to 4GB RAM. Have you checked if you have memory issues? Windows 10 is all 64 bit now.

I feel now a bit ashamed as I was aware of the limitation on RAM for windows 32 bits but didn't know it affected also the programs. Anyway, my projects requires still less and to be 100% sure, I did a complete test through Ableton 64 bits with 64 bits plugins and have exactly the same issue.

Quote
EDIT: Are everything you use installed on a correct connected internal SSD? EDIT END

Yes, single SSD, brand new (3 weeks ago) plugged internally on the laptop. Runs perfectly fine (Win starts in a couple of seconds).

LBH

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2019, 08:04:22 pm »
Do you have audio issues, if you run a music player or youtube or similar thru Audiofuse?

Are you sure are not having audio issues, when you use the internal soundcard? You did say you had to run very high latency on this.
If you set the same latency for Audiofuse, then you say you have more audio issues, than using the internal soundcard? If that's the case, then i would say you need to have your Audiofuse tested.

When you test in Ableton 64 bit, then how do you use the plug-ins you used in your project that only was 32 bit? How can you tell your issue is not about your plug-ins?
What happens if you create a new Ableton project in 64 bit using only Abletons Native plugins?

The last Windows version is 1903. But there are updates. You can find it thru windows settings panel. Go to the update section and then click the link to show updates. It's below the search for updates button.

saiirus

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Re: Latency with Windows10 laptop + Cubase 5
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2019, 04:35:55 pm »
Do you have audio issues, if you run a music player or youtube or similar thru Audiofuse?

I do have the same issues.

Quote
Are you sure are not having audio issues, when you use the internal soundcard? You did say you had to run very high latency on this.
If you set the same latency for Audiofuse, then you say you have more audio issues, than using the internal soundcard? If that's the case, then i would say you need to have your Audiofuse tested.

I am not able to reach the same latency, even with the buffer at the highest possible rate (2048), the internal soundcard is like 60ms IN / 350 ms out. But works fine.

Quote
When you test in Ableton 64 bit, then how do you use the plug-ins you used in your project that only was 32 bit? How can you tell your issue is not about your plug-ins?

I reinstalled the same plugins in 64 bits. And I tested with switching ON and OFF each plugin.

Quote
What happens if you create a new Ableton project in 64 bit using only Abletons Native plugins?

I tested with the built in sample songs (all native plugins), still the same issues.

Quote
The last Windows version is 1903. But there are updates. You can find it thru windows settings panel. Go to the update section and then click the link to show updates. It's below the search for updates button.

Mine is KB4505903

 

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