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Author Topic: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed  (Read 1182 times)

turbo_kev

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At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« on: March 30, 2019, 09:12:44 pm »
check out this video if you wanna know how its done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJATQNSkK6U&lc=z22pthqpczeecjeqg04t1aokgzu4mabzwuikzbby0q0mrk0h00410.1553973643497523&feature=em-comments

Thanks to yusynthman  for the video

cheers
Kev
BWS 3.0.0,Spark LE, V Collection 6.2, BS1 & BS PRO, Keystep, keylab 25, Axiom pro 49,Focusrite Scarlett 8i6,LP Pro,ProFx8 v2,Icon m+ & D2,KRK 10/3,win 10 pro,i7 5820k 4ghz ,16G ddr 4 ,1TB NVMe.M2, msi x99a sli + , NV GF Gt 710, Matrix Brute (beta tester )

standingwave

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2019, 10:28:26 pm »
Thanks for sharing. I'm going to ignore the negative sign before your karma and add one more.
 Cheers!

turbo_kev

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 07:45:30 pm »
And another video check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6vQ-5lnZDs

cheers
kev
BWS 3.0.0,Spark LE, V Collection 6.2, BS1 & BS PRO, Keystep, keylab 25, Axiom pro 49,Focusrite Scarlett 8i6,LP Pro,ProFx8 v2,Icon m+ & D2,KRK 10/3,win 10 pro,i7 5820k 4ghz ,16G ddr 4 ,1TB NVMe.M2, msi x99a sli + , NV GF Gt 710, Matrix Brute (beta tester )

endreola

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 06:53:54 am »
Nice finds Kev.  The ratcheting effect in the first video sound amazing but looks like a science project to configure.  The second video seems simpler but IMO I wouldn't call that ratcheting, more like stuttering :)

I know, I know -- it's hard to please some people ;)

Cheers

KrisL

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 01:52:30 pm »
...not quite, and I'm sure yusynthman knows himself the first video he posted (especially the first) isn't anywhere near a ratchet (i.e not a single-step repeat)...

For example: the rhythm for Ravel's Bolero, if implementing a true ratchet, only requires 12 steps.  The method outlined above requires not 12, but 36 i.e a single step for lowest beat value (in this instance, semiquaver triplets).

PS implying/suggesting on other threads that someone may be lying really isn't going to win any brownie points/gain new friends, nor is it a good way of coercing information from someone (with subsequent feedback to other posters on the forum after making said small inquiries/garnering a response).



DrJustice

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2019, 02:22:39 pm »
KrisL, refusing to share information and knowledge, including MatrixBrute "ratcheting" techniques and bug reports, isn't going to win any brownie points either ;)

The synth community is small and dependent on everyone helping as best we as they can, whether it's asking questions or providing answers.

KrisL

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2019, 03:00:07 pm »
The relative size of a community does not somehow qualify the free distribution of any part of a system associated with that community.


By way of analogy:

When Aphex Twin releases a track, he is under absolutely no obligation to share with the general public his means of creating the track.  He shares his music - which people can then, if they choose to, reverse-engineer to the best of their ability.  In doing so, they will likely learn more than a simple reveal of how something was done in the first place (which more often than not removes the mystique, with the end-user simply moving on to the next 'unsolved puzzle').

Throwing a strop when Aphex Twin doesn't reply to how he formed his track speaks more of the individual than it does of Aphex Twin - who owes the individual nothing (irrespective of whether or not said individual chooses to interpret this with a bad taste in the mouth).

My sharing with the synth community a video illustrating ratcheting is possible on the MB has - as can already be seen - produced new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought with certain individuals (i.e yusynthmans videos.  Which, whilst not ratcheting - are certainly interesting.  And it is great to see someone has tried to discover a solution through creativity/work, as opposed to looking for an answer.  A distinction should be made between a solution and an answer). 

Simply giving the answer is not conducive to creativity. 

Now, if the entire synth community wishes to hold a grudge for this, so be it.  We are all free to do as we wish.


However, what has been shared is:

1)  Ratcheting is possible with the MB
2)  Try to find a solution.  In doing so, you may inadvertently discover something useful/original that can be implemented in your music.


I'm sure individuals taking the time to share videos when they could quite happily be pursuing something else is appreciated by the synth community - given, as you say, how small it is.

And if we are tallying, shall we do a count of how much musical content has been shared? 


After purchasing the instruments, we owe nothing to any community.  Doing so is a choice.


If a pianist discovers a very useful fingering for, say, a more efficient means of executing a Chopin etude, he is under no obligation to share this fingering with the 'piano community' - nor is his not doing so somehow an attack on the piano community.  He could, however, share a performance (if he chose to).


Finding a new method/weakness/vulnerability in a system does not automatically qualify the information for distribution. 

Consider Rain Forest Puppy. 



Trying to find a solution generally yields more interesting results than simply being given a solution.  I believe the effort of trying to find a solution will be more useful to any individual than the solution per se (users will become very knowledgeable RE the MB by trying to find a solution.  Not so if given one).  Ultimately, if 'ratcheting' is the desired outcome, purchasing equipment with ratchet feature is a solution. 

Now, if my position leads to a community taking a moral issue against this stance, I cannot stop this.

 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 03:39:07 pm by KrisL »

DrJustice

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2019, 03:39:21 pm »
That's right, nobody is under the obligation to share anything. However, sharing information and knowledge is the one thing that has brought the world to where it is. New information and knowledge leads to new creativity. Without it we get stagnation. If we all had stuck to tribal isolation and secrecy forever, we'd still be in the stone ages.

Regarding your analogies, we're not talking about cryptographic (mentioned in your posting before your edit) or musical trade secrets. We're talking about understanding and bettering the tools we use to make music. A small community trying to make the best of it together.

The community here has indeed explored avenues to ratcheting (here and here). BTW, ratcheting is the most requested feature for the sequencer AFAIK, and I, for one, hold a hope that we'll see it in upcoming firmware.

I know you've said (for other readers here's some context, a conversation that started on GS: link) that you consider the MatrixBrute to be an investment, that you demand the manufacturer protects your investment and that you refuse to "work for free" by submitting bug reports. However, consider that submitting your already worked out bug list would protect your investment and it would not entail any further "free work".

Otherwise, if you're still adamant that nobody should "work for free" to report bugs, I take it that you'll either refrain from installing any future firmware that is a result of others "working for free" or that you'll be paying those "workers" for their efforts before taking advantage of their work.

That last bit is not about ratcheting, but the will to share for the benefit of the community and even oneself.

An no, we don't need a tallying of how much musical content has been shared. That's something entirely different, and at least as much for self promotion (which is fine) as for "altruistic" sharing.

Your list of "53 bugs, and three (quite major) faults" would be appreciated by the community, I'm sure. Or perhaps we could open a Kickstarter campaign to buy out your bug list  :D

Edit to add comment:
Quote
If a pianist discovers a very useful fingering for, say, a more efficient means of executing a Chopin etude, he is under no obligation to share this fingering with the 'piano community' - nor is his not doing so somehow an attack on the piano community.  He could, however, share a performance (if he chose to).
Most pianists wouldn't seek out a piano forum and say "Iv'e got a new and better fingering, but I ain't telling!". I also don't think Aphex Twin would do anything of the sort; "I have some great techniques for making cool tracks, but I'm not telling!". Incidentally I found several videos on YouTube where people teach alternate fingerings of Chopin Etudes...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 07:57:27 pm by DrJustice »

MajorFubar

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2019, 04:30:21 pm »
KrisL there is actually no point you being here if you're not prepared to share your knowledge, because that's the sole purpose of this community. Sanctimonious posts claiming you are encouraging others to develop 'new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought' don't really interest anyone. In a support community like this, you're either an asset to the community because you're willing to share your knowledge, or your posts are pointless. There are other websites available if all you're interested in doing is gloating about the size of your c*ck. Sorry.
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KrisL

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2019, 04:55:21 pm »
Clearly my point is being missed and the issue is being taken personally.  Not to mention insults/judgements in other posts.


I take it that you'll either refrain from installing any future firmware that is a result of others "working for free" or that you'll be paying those "workers" for their efforts before taking advantage of their work.

If fixes are required in order for an instrument to be as-advertised, yes, a company (any company) should move from a position of non-compliance to one of compliance.  It is in the interest of their reputation to do so.  And - as said elsewhere - legally there is a precedent for this. 

If a company developed updates above & beyond the advertised spec, and if said updates interested me: yes, I'd be more than happy to purchase them.  Investment should have its reward.


Updates to deliver functionality as of spec = responsibility of the company.
Updates to deliver beyond advertised spec = company can charge as they wish for purchase. 



Despite the rudeness/personal attack, I'll play along: 

If, in 18 months (2nd Oct 2020), there is no forward progress with ratcheting, I'll give a hint. 


To conclude: Yusynthman's videos do not demonstrate a ratchet.  As I already objectively explained RE the Ravel analogy.  That isn't to say the videos lack value, but rather, they do not demonstrate a ratchet. 

This is an observation, not a criticism, and should be read as such. 
 

   
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 05:39:15 pm by KrisL »

DrJustice

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2019, 06:04:40 pm »
Clearly my point is being missed and the issue is being taken personally.  Not to mention insults/judgements in other posts.
I understand your points perfectly well, but I disagree strongly with them and the accompanying attitude. I think it could be said to be insulting/judgemental to insinuate that people aren't creative enough because they've not discovered whatever it is you've done, or if they simply wonder about how to do it. Same for seeking out a support community to say that you have something useful or neat worked out, be it hints & tips or bug reports, and then you refuse to share it - at that point it becomes a case of put up or shut up.

To back up one step:
Quote
My sharing with the synth community a video illustrating ratcheting is possible on the MB has - as can already be seen - produced new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought with certain individuals (i.e yusynthmans videos.  Which, whilst not ratcheting - are certainly interesting. And it is great to see someone has tried to discover a solution through creativity/work, as opposed to looking for an answer.  A distinction should be made between a solution and an answer). 
You're not the inspiration for Yves' "ratcheting" videos. That, as well as general talk about it, started in 2016, and the new videos he posted was a response to people asking about it, and he wanted to help and share. The credit for Yves' unselfish work (of which there is a lot) is his alone.

Quote
If, in 18 months (2nd Oct 2020), there is no forward progress with ratcheting, I'll give a hint.
How gracious of you.

Perhaps you could learn and experience something new by working with the community, not come just to gloat and lecture about irrelevancies.

KrisL

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2019, 06:28:15 pm »
Quote from: DrJustice
I think it could be said to be insulting/judgemental to insinuate that people aren't creative enough because they've not discovered whatever it is you've done, or if they simply wonder about how to do it.

I believe words are being added here.  I don't believe I wrote others weren't creative enough, but rather: the process of trying to discover something can lead to new avenues of creativity. 

If quoting, please quote.


Quote from: DrJustice
Same for seeking out a support community to say that you have something useful or neat worked out, be it hints & tips or bug reports, and then you refuse to share it - at that point it becomes a case of put up or shut up.

Again, misattribution.  I posted here for two reasons:

1)  To confirm the included isn't a ratchet
2)  To comment on a previous topic where a suggestion of lying was made.



Quote from: DrJustice
You're not the inspiration for Yves' "ratcheting" videos. That, as well as general talk about it, started in 2016, and the new videos he posted was a response to people asking about it, and he wanted to help and share. The credit for Yves' unselfish work (of which there is a lot) is his alone.

Yet more misinterpretation. 

I don't believe I stated I was the inspiration.  If I did, please provide the evidence. 


Please read what I write objectively, as this has become an ad hominem.




Quote from: DrJustice
How gracious of you.

Perhaps you could learn and experience something new by working with the community, not come just to gloat and lecture about irrelevancies.


18 months gives ample time to find solutions.

I'm happy to retract the offer.



Read what someone writes objectively, as opposed to projecting.


My statements:

1) The examples aren't ratchets
2) Letting someone find a creative solution to a problem often inspires more creativity than simply offering a solution (for statistical evidence of this, read Sternberg's Handbook of Creativity)
3) Companies should provide an as-described product.  Anything above & beyond they can charge as they see fit
4) Implications were made against me on this very forum. 


Your own assertions are conjecture; the above is fact. 


Again, I have spoken factually and objectively.  Again, we have an ad hominem. 

DrJustice

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2019, 07:04:55 pm »
Since you asked for evidence, you did indeed claim to have inspired Yves to make ratcheting videos (that'll be the one point I bother to reply to by now):
...
My sharing with the synth community a video illustrating ratcheting is possible on the MB has - as can already be seen - produced new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought with certain individuals (i.e yusynthmans videos.  Which, whilst not ratcheting - are certainly interesting. And it is great to see someone has tried to discover a solution through creativity/work, as opposed to looking for an answer.  A distinction should be made between a solution and an answer). 

Quote
Your own assertions are conjecture; the above is fact.

Again, I have spoken factually and objectively.  Again, we have an ad hominem. 
That's a bit rich. I don't dispute any actual facts, but I do take issue with the explicit and implicit insinuations and what I consider to be a lack of understanding of how (support) communities work.

We'll have to agree to disagree, methinks.

Edit: Sorry about the OT, turbo_kev.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 01:01:31 am by DrJustice »

turbo_kev

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2019, 09:55:09 pm »
No Probs Dr Justice

Im not as polite as you , and im from the east end of london
As my karma is so low anyway
I might as well make it a bit lower

by saying that KrisLs  Head is so big its a wonder how he manages to fit it up his own arse

Karma - 6000000

cheers
kev
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 09:57:23 pm by turbo_kev »
BWS 3.0.0,Spark LE, V Collection 6.2, BS1 & BS PRO, Keystep, keylab 25, Axiom pro 49,Focusrite Scarlett 8i6,LP Pro,ProFx8 v2,Icon m+ & D2,KRK 10/3,win 10 pro,i7 5820k 4ghz ,16G ddr 4 ,1TB NVMe.M2, msi x99a sli + , NV GF Gt 710, Matrix Brute (beta tester )

KrisL

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Re: At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2019, 06:17:55 am »
I'd like to see the sin committed warranting a ridiculous personal attack.

In conclusion:

1) I visited this forum a few weeks ago to discover there were suggestions of lying made against me
2) Despite this, I remained objective and still offered to share details RE the ratchet technique
3) This was met with disdain/mockery i.e 'how gracious of you'.
4) Ill language has been used against me numerous times in this thread. 

I trust the moderators will treat this thread accordingly - especially with respect language/personal comments. 

Offer retracted.  Good luck in finding the solution. 

 

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