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Author Topic: Sequential Program Change Messages  (Read 3779 times)

Almuzura

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Sequential Program Change Messages
« on: February 11, 2019, 08:06:42 pm »
Hello everybody,

I'm sitting here in front of my gorgeous, brand new KeyLab MKII (61 keys). I mostly use it to control outboard synths, so I need to set any 2 buttons to send sequential program change messages.

I managed to send specific program change messages but I need the function where 2 buttons allow me to scroll up and down the list of sounds in my external synths - and, for that matter, also soft synths other than AnalogLab (i.e. Kontakt and SampleTank).

Am I missing something or is this a limit of the Keylab MKII? I love the instrument but the lack of this function would be a deal-breaker for me.

Thank you in advance for your help.

LBH

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 08:21:29 pm »
Hi and welcome to Arturia forums.

I don't have a Arturia Keylab yet. But in the manual there are lots of informations about ProgramChange.

For example:
"This option allows you to use KeyLab mkII’s ----- to trigger program changes within virtual
instruments, outboard synths, and much more.
8.5.4. Pad Program Change
8.9.4. Select button Program Change
8.12.4. Pedal Program Change

In User mode [p.42] the buttons can send MIDI control data, MIDI notes, or program
changes, with three banks of settings available within each of the 10 presets [p.42]. These
can be assigned from the front panel [p.42] or by using the MIDI Control Center [p.61]."


So why not have a look in the Controller and the MCC manual? Look like it should be possible to do what you wan't.
Manuals can be forund here: https://www.arturia.com/support/updates&manuals

Terrym

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 10:03:49 pm »
yes thats the best way to set program change not tried my self but may  do this week.

The attchement is a screenshot in the mcc
TerryM
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ASC,Vcol6, Beatstep pro, VCOL7, Synclavier v.Minibrute2s

Almuzura

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2019, 03:48:40 pm »
Hello, guys, thanks for taking the time to welcome me and to reply.

I had read the manuals thoroughly before starting this thread and there is no instructions on how to accomplish what I am trying to. Perhaps, the title I used is confusing, I should have called this thread "Previous Preset Button and Next Preset Button Assignment" rather than "Sequential Program Change Messages" but I explained what I was trying to do:

I managed to send specific program change messages but I need the function where 2 buttons allow me to scroll up and down the list of sounds in my external synths - and, for that matter, also soft synths other than AnalogLab (i.e. Kontakt and SampleTank).

Reading elsewhere I've learnt that Previous/Next Preset commands depends on the specific hardware and cannot be configured using MIDI CCs (in some cases, it can be done via Sysex, if I understood correctly).

Regardless, I'd like to thank you all for your help.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 03:54:12 pm by Almuzura »

LBH

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 04:15:29 pm »
Hi Almuzura,

Yes how to control software depend on how the individual software go about this. I assumed you knew that, as you asked about programChange.

In Arturias software you can assign any CC to the next/ and previous preset buttons using MIDI learn. But that's not using ProgramChange as such. It does'nt have a MIDI CC number that you can assign. You can also use your Computer keyboards arrow keys.
In Arturias software you can also create Playlist where you can actually use ProgramChange. ProgramChange is a speciel message, it's not a Midi CC. Bank select is a Midi CC.
I also believe you have speciel options to control Arturia software with your Arturia controller.

Other software may have similar ways to select presets with or without the use of programChange.
You asked about ProgramChange. And that also step thru presets, when you use buttons like you described.

In a synth like NI Massive you can also only use ProgramChange, if you create a Program List. I don't think it's possible to assign a MIDI CC to Massives next and previous preset buttons. Like in Arturias software can use your computer keyboards arrow keys + use enter. There are Komplete Kontrols possibilities if you have a possibility to use that, as i think you at least at the moment need a NI hardware controller to use it.
I believe this answer some of this too: https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=94624.0

Hardware use ProgramChange and perhaps Bank Select.

I think you got the answer you asked for, as you asked specificly about using ProgramChange.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 06:20:44 pm by LBH »

Almuzura

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 07:54:01 pm »
Hello, LBH, thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate that, you are one of the few who contributed to my thread.

In spite of that, I need to say something, not for the sake of arguing or attacking but because I believe other users in the forum, especially those with less experience, deserve a clear answer, as my specific question hasn't been answered yet.

I didn't ask a generic question about Program Change; I asked about a function that, lacking a standardized definition, I called "sequential program change messages" and I gave a concise explanation of what I meant by that, and if I failed in being clear, I gave a different definition in my second post.

Nektar (in the Panorama P Series controllers) calls that function "Step Program Change":



In the Samson Carbon manual there is an explanation on how to set the Transpose + and - Buttons to do the "sequential" program change (see attachment) and that works wonderfully with my outboard synths and Kontakt.

That's all I was asking I wanted to do with my new KeyLab MKII. Now I kind of figured out this cannot be done but I still hope somebody shows me it's possible ;)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 08:14:29 pm by Almuzura »

LBH

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2019, 01:20:47 am »
Hi Almuzura,

As i wrote in my first post, then i don't have a Arturia controller, and i did'nt know which Program Change possiblities it have. We are talking about MIDI program change.
I have now looked in the MCC application. And i'm actually able to see, that a Keylab MKII button can be set to Program Change Mode just like terrym posted an image of.
By selecting the Program Change option, then i see it has settings for Program Number, Bank LSB and Bank MSB.
I can't test how this behave, as i don't have the controller.

Is this what you have tested, and tested fully? Does the button only send a specific number, or does a step infact occour depending on the settings?
(You could have told that and asked specificly about how to get steps in this function, if this is what you had tried.)

In the MCC manual Arturia write this:
"Performance control assignments
◦ Bank/Program number and range".
What is meant with range in this? How to set it? Is it a fault in the manual?
Could it be that the Bank LSB and Bank MSB in this case actually set a range in a way where the increament and decreament is determined by which of the MSB and LSB parameters that have a higher value than the other, and not about selecting a certain Bank like one perhaps should think? I don't know, as i can't test it. You can test it.
The fact that you have the same settings availble for expression pedal may suggest, that it's possible to send more than one specific value. Again - i can't test it, so i can't tell.

I don't know about MSB, LSB, NRPN, RPN, so i can tell if there is a possibility in using this.

(A button in the Switched mode have the options Toggle and Gate. I don't know if this has an impact on how the button work in Program Change mode.)

Better informations about all this in the manuals would be good. I exspect a Program change can work in steps. I will be disapointed if Keylab MKii in some way or another can't do this.
(I also exspect buttons  in generel to be able to be able to have more than 2 stages.)

You are not been given any wrong informations.

EDIT: After having a look in the Keylab 88 controllers manual, then i'm afraid that it might be so, that you can only send a specific Program Change value. But i guess it have to be tested. EDIT END
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 02:47:57 am by LBH »

Germain.arturia

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 10:45:05 am »
Hi Almuzura and everyone on this board!
thanks LBH and TerryM for your help on this one.

@Almuzura :
indeed, the main question is what kind of message are your external devices and softwares are supposed to expect for the previous/next preset function.
On the keylab side, the 1-9 buttons under sliders can be configured to send cc, nrpn/rpn and program changes messages.
regarding program change messages it can be used to "load" a specific preset following the bank, sub-bank, and program logic specific to external device or software.
as an example with arturia software:
i want to use keylab mkii button 1 to load a specific preset preset in analog lab.i'll use program change messages for this
In analog lab i created different playlists containing some of my favorite presets
let's say i want to use button 1 to load the 2nd preset of my 3rd playlist -> i will have to configure keylab button 1 to send the following message :
bank 3 , sub bank 0 (sub bank is not considered) , program 2

also for analog lab , previous/next preset function is done by sending CC 28 (previous preset) and CC 29(next preset) in Gate mode.

hope this helps a bit,
in the meantime, could you please share us a detailed list of external devices and software you want to control?

  cheers,

synthbball

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2019, 01:08:01 am »
Hi Almuzura and everyone on this board!
thanks LBH and TerryM for your help on this one.

@Almuzura :
indeed, the main question is what kind of message are your external devices and softwares are supposed to expect for the previous/next preset function.
On the keylab side, the 1-9 buttons under sliders can be configured to send cc, nrpn/rpn and program changes messages.
regarding program change messages it can be used to "load" a specific preset following the bank, sub-bank, and program logic specific to external device or software.
as an example with arturia software:
i want to use keylab mkii button 1 to load a specific preset preset in analog lab.i'll use program change messages for this
In analog lab i created different playlists containing some of my favorite presets
let's say i want to use button 1 to load the 2nd preset of my 3rd playlist -> i will have to configure keylab button 1 to send the following message :
bank 3 , sub bank 0 (sub bank is not considered) , program 2

also for analog lab , previous/next preset function is done by sending CC 28 (previous preset) and CC 29(next preset) in Gate mode.

hope this helps a bit,
in the meantime, could you please share us a detailed list of external devices and software you want to control?

  cheers,

I know the manual talks briefly about these options, but do you guys have some guides on how to setup program change, nrpn, rpn, etc., with all the buttons, knobs, pads, etc.? I'm also in the same boat as the Almuzura except I want to control VST presets. I managed to setup two buttons to select two different patches in NI Prism in Reaktor 6 by setting up the buttons to program change. But Prism has a lot of different banks such as a pad bank, lead bank, etc. The buttons only selected patches from the first bank option which was "001 Best of". There are 10 banks. I'm wondering how I can assign the buttons to any of the banks. Also, I'm wondering how to make the buttons change up and down the preset list in each bank? This is what I'm trying to figure out for any VST and perhaps Almuzura is also seeking the same information. Thanks.

LBH

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2019, 03:25:29 am »
@synthbball
I use Reaktor 5. In Reaktor 5 the Snapshots respond to MIDI Program Change and the Banks respond to Bank select LSB (MIDI CC#32).
MIDI CCs can also be assigned directly to a knobs and sliders in Keylab MKII, and give a scroll option.
Does'nt the Bank MSB/ LSB parameters in Keylab MKIIs Program Change settings have an impact for this?

I think we all say, that Keylab MKII can't do step MIDI Program Change by itself. It can select a specific preset choice, and that's to me a very useful feature and in many situations much more valueable than doing steps, and many other controllers can't do this. But it would be nice if it also could do steps for buttons in generel with a user set range and a increment and decrement option.
What perhaps can be possible is if you somehow can assign a control to a MIDI Program Change automation parameter in a DAW or if you have other possibilities to do this.

If it's possible for Keylab MKIIs buttons and pads to somehow do steps, then i would like to know. I think this is very useful both for preset/ bank select and for any switch or knob that have more options than on and off (2 settings).


EDIT: In my Reaktor 6 player Bank select LSB (MIDI CC#32) work in embeded banks.
And Program Change work for snapshots. As in Reaktor 5 (That i have in full version), then a Reaktor Ensemble have to be set to use Program Change.
I have not used Reaktor 6 much.
I can add, that it's also possible to use a computer keyboards up/ down arrows in a active bank or snapshot window. EDIT END.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 08:09:06 pm by LBH »

hrgraf

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2021, 10:02:29 pm »
Hi, I have built a VST2 plug-in as work-around for this issue. It converts the Arturia default CC MIDI commands of the Preset knob to MIDI program changes.
Check it out at https://github.com/hrgraf/pizmidi and let me know if it works for you!


mshvan

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Re: Sequential Program Change Messages
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2021, 11:43:41 pm »
Hi, I have built a VST2 plug-in as work-around for this issue. It converts the Arturia default CC MIDI commands of the Preset knob to MIDI program changes.
Check it out at https://github.com/hrgraf/pizmidi and let me know if it works for you!

Hi, I have built a VST2 plug-in as work-around for this issue. It converts the Arturia default CC MIDI commands of the Preset knob to MIDI program changes.
Check it out at https://github.com/hrgraf/pizmidi and let me know if it works for you!

Hgraf - I think this is just what people are trying to do, what I've been going a little nuts searching for. Some simple way to scroll through, audition sounds in various AU and synths, using a keylab essential. It seems like there's no easy way to do this (which seems crazy, the reaching or scrolling through is time consuming and uncomfortable in many cases, reaching up to computer, mouse, etc. Being able to increment up or down through patches in some standardized way seems like something that should have existed a long time ago)

It seems like your VST does what I'm looking for, but it's...just for PC (mac user here)

I've read people using midi pipeline, I might try to try that.

 

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