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Author Topic: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected  (Read 497 times)

theluggage

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ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« on: January 06, 2019, 07:23:15 pm »
OK, I've got ENV 1 to trigger on "Keyboard Trigger ON" but it isn't acting the way I'd expect an ADSR envelope to work...

Its behaving more like an AR envelope with the "D" knob setting the "Release" value. The actual "R" knob doesn't seem to do anything and the  "Sustain" knob just seems to set a constant output voltage...

I'm not having any difficulty with the two main envelope generators on the VCAs - which have  pretty much the same "interface" - and all of the pre-sets I've looked at seem to want an AR envelope anyway... so I'm rather confused.

LBH

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Re: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2019, 08:03:05 pm »
OK, I've got ENV 1 to trigger on "Keyboard Trigger ON" but it isn't acting the way I'd expect an ADSR envelope to work...

Its behaving more like an AR envelope with the "D" knob setting the "Release" value. The actual "R" knob doesn't seem to do anything and the  "Sustain" knob just seems to set a constant output voltage...

I'm not having any difficulty with the two main envelope generators on the VCAs - which have  pretty much the same "interface" - and all of the pre-sets I've looked at seem to want an AR envelope anyway... so I'm rather confused.
Modular actually have ADRS envelopes. So they will not act like ADSR envelopes.
The envelopes phases can last for many seconds each.

If you are not aware of this, then this might be it.

The release for the xtra envelopes also depend on the VCA envelopes Release settings, which is normal.

Also keep in mind, that if you for example wan't a Envelope to modulate a filter, then if you add negative modulation, then the envelope work in reverse polarity.
 
The envelopes work. So if any of this does'nt solve your issue, then please post an image or perhaps even a preset, where you have the issue. But i hope this helps.

theluggage

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Re: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2019, 05:21:53 pm »
The release for the xtra envelopes also depend on the VCA envelopes Release settings, which is normal.

Aha! That's the culprit!  For my experimentation I had the VCA Release pegged to maximum thinking that would let me hear the release phase of the modulation envelope - but now I realise that also sets the release of the mod env to infinity.  I've tried triggering the mod envelope from the sequencer instead, now the envelope controls make sense.

Thanks - that behaviour may be normal but its far from obvious (and I couldn't see it in the manual)! 

Modular actually have ADRS envelopes. So they will not act like ADSR envelopes.

I couldn't find any reference to an ADRS envelope on Google (other than obvious typos for ADSR). The Modular V manual describes the mod envelopes thus:

Quote
When the input trigger goes from an inactive to an active state, the envelope launches its sequences “attack” followed by “decay” and remains in the “sustain” state as long as the input trigger remains active. When it goes to an inactive state, the envelope begins the “release” sequence.

...which sounds like ADSR to me. What I was seeing was consistent with the "R" being infinite because of the VCA setting.

LBH

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Re: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 05:40:51 pm »
Modular actually have ADRS envelopes. So they will not act like ADSR envelopes.

I couldn't find any reference to an ADRS envelope on Google (other than obvious typos for ADSR). The Modular V manual describes the mod envelopes thus:

Quote
When the input trigger goes from an inactive to an active state, the envelope launches its sequences “attack” followed by “decay” and remains in the “sustain” state as long as the input trigger remains active. When it goes to an inactive state, the envelope begins the “release” sequence.

...which sounds like ADSR to me. What I was seeing was consistent with the "R" being infinite because of the VCA setting.
I was trying to say, that the knobs was in a different order than you might exspect. The envelope stages is ADSR but the knobs is set in ADRS order.

EDIT: Here is a link for the original Envelope module: https://modularsynthesis.com/moog/911/911.htm.
Notice the forth parameter is Esus (Sustain) and not the Release. In a ADS envelope like in the Minimoog the Decay also act as the Release. I guess there are some technical reasons or a thinking why Moog decided to make it this way.


And -
Perhaps this will clear up some things for you:
https://reverb.com/news/intro-to-synthesis-part-5-how-to-use-amp-envelopes-and-filter-envelopes
Read the text in the link.
I can add, that if you have a Envelope with a long release controling a filter, then you will not be able to hear the full release time, if the VCA envelope it uses and that control the volume of the sound have a short release. How should that be possible? The sound fade out with the VCAs Release time, even though there may be sound differences during this time, related to how long release time the ENV that control the filter have. EDIT END.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 08:36:37 pm by LBH »

theluggage

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Re: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2019, 04:23:33 pm »
OK, after a bit of experimentation, mystery solved, and its not me having a premature senior moment and forgetting how envelopes work. The answer is in a footnote on p129 of the manual (in the section on external triggers):

[QUOTE}
It is also possible to create a continuous note (hold) so that the Modular signal doesn’t stop. For this, set the “Release” knob on the VCA1 envelope fully to the right (in the direction of the hands of a clock).
[/QUOTE]

...Now, that sounds pretty much what you'd expect if you set the release time of an envelope to infinity.  However, it turns out making this setting on either VCA1 or VCA2  overrides the "Release" setting on every envelope generator including VCA2 and all of the modulation envelopes - even if they are triggered by the sequencer.

To demonstrate the effect - load the preset "Trance" (which is an endlessly running sequence just gated by the keyboard via VCA1) and set the Release of VCA 2 to maximum - notice how it doesn't just keep the sequence playing  but actually changes the envelope on the individual steps in the sequence - and VCA2 isn't even patched in to this preset, so its not that the mod envelopes were being "hidden" by the release on the VCA.

The solution is, of course, "Well, don't do that then!" - but if you don't know that its really confusing since maxing out the Release on the VCAs is a pretty obvious thing to do if you want to be able to hear the full cycle of your mod envelopes...


LBH

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Re: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2019, 05:51:34 pm »
The answer is in a footnote on p129 of the manual (in the section on external triggers):

Quote
It is also possible to create a continuous note (hold) so that the Modular signal doesn’t stop. For this, set the “Release” knob on the VCA1 envelope fully to the right (in the direction of the hands of a clock).

...Now, that sounds pretty much what you'd expect if you set the release time of an envelope to infinity.  However, it turns out making this setting on either VCA1 or VCA2  overrides the "Release" setting on every envelope generator including VCA2 and all of the modulation envelopes - even if they are triggered by the sequencer.
Yes i have noticed issues with the VCAs. I see this as a bug.
Some is reported here: https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=90116.msg138201#new
And it's also correct that other strange things happens, when using the HOLD function, so the function in reality does'nt work as it should.

It's in the same area my answers is directing to look at to find a solution.

The solution is, of course, "Well, don't do that then!" - but if you don't know that its really confusing since maxing out the Release on the VCAs is a pretty obvious thing to do if you want to be able to hear the full cycle of your mod envelopes...
It's not very often to use Release times of over 30 seconds seconds. Especially not for a sequencer triggered sequence. Perhaps you wan't to use HOLD.
But if you wan't to use the HOLD function, then it should not affect the sound, like it does now.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 06:00:54 pm by LBH »

theluggage

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Re: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2019, 03:19:15 pm »
It's not very often to use Release times of over 30 seconds seconds. Especially not for a sequencer triggered sequence. Perhaps you wan't to use HOLD.
But if you wan't to use the HOLD function, then it should not affect the sound, like it does now.

It would only be a practical problem if you wanted a continuously-running sound for sound effects, or a continuous drone etc. Of course, being able to do unusual things like that is one reason you'd be using a modular synth!

However, I think the most likely reason for wanting to use "Hold" is while you're experimenting/building a patch so that you can hear the effect of the mod envelopes independently of the VCA envelope. That's what I was doing.

Is having an ADSR envelope baked into the main output VCAs an authentic feature, or something Arturia have changed? The iPad Model 15 App has separate VCAs - which I can also see in the old pictures because of the distinctive triangle of mod inputs at the bottom.

LBH

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Re: ENV 1 - 6 sustain/release not working as expected
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2019, 04:26:14 pm »
It's not very often to use Release times of over 30 seconds seconds. Especially not for a sequencer triggered sequence. Perhaps you wan't to use HOLD.
But if you wan't to use the HOLD function, then it should not affect the sound, like it does now.

It would only be a practical problem if you wanted a continuously-running sound for sound effects, or a continuous drone etc. Of course, being able to do unusual things like that is one reason you'd be using a modular synth!
For continous drones and such i could use HOLD, but not Release as the Release fade out sooner or later. Using HOLD is the only way to keep the gate open with only one triggering.

However, I think the most likely reason for wanting to use "Hold" is while you're experimenting/building a patch so that you can hear the effect of the mod envelopes independently of the VCA envelope. That's what I was doing.
Perhaps you do it like that. I have not yet used HOLD like that in Modular V. I also have a HOLD pedal. In some cases i perhaps would use that method. I mainly use HOLD as a play mode or for continous drones and such. But in such cases i may also use my HOLD pedal or something else.

You did'nt write, that you did use HOLD. And in your third post you apparantly found out about it in the manual. But yes you perhaps did use HOLD, but apparantly without knowing it. It's not a common feature for all synth that turning the Realease up fully equals HOLD. Mini V has it on the Decay that also work as Release.

Is having an ADSR envelope baked into the main output VCAs an authentic feature, or something Arturia have changed?
I think the original actual VCA was a module without an hardwired envelope.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 07:04:06 pm by LBH »

 

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