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Author Topic: Mini experts - is it typical behaviour, filter jumping up when playing quickly?  (Read 3906 times)

jeffbart

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Hi
I hope to get some advice from Minimoog experts.

I have noticed in some instances the Mini V3 ( and V2) filter cutoff jumping to odd values when playing quickly, as if the filter cutoff value had been 'added' to the cutoff of the new note. It sounds like the filter would jump if I played quickly, not always predictably.

I've made a midi file and a Min V3 patch to illustrate what I'm talking about
Make it loop. At tempo 40 BPM, filter behaves. At around 50-60, the filter contour does not start at the cutoff, it jumps up, sounds like it's got a new, higher value.

Is this typical MiniMoog D behaviour (is it 'normal''), or can it be considered a bug in Mini V?

Many thanks for your patience with my questions, and any advice.
Cheers Jeff
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 08:20:13 am by jeffbart »
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LBH

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Hi,

Still no expert.

What's the point with the MIDI file you post? I understand the preset i think.

But take a look here:
https://www.arturia.com/mini-v/details
Under: A faithful reproduction - Why does it sound so good.

It's excactly a kind of behavior similar to this that is essesentiel, charateristic and speciel for Minimoog and especially for some minimoog sounds.
The amount of it i can't remember, and i hav'nt checked this feature in Mini V3 yet - i guess it's about the same as in V2 -, but a behavior similar to this is a speciel characteristic of the Minimoog Contour, that i wan't in a Minimoog emulation. Else it's no Minimoog - at least not to me.  It's good Arturia Mini V  have a feature like this, and a important one to make it the best emulation overall.

You can also read about it in the Original Minimoog Manual as far as i remember. I believe you can find it on the web.

Hope you can use this info, and it helps you.


« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:47:49 pm by LBH »

jeffbart

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hi
The midi file was there to easily display to others the large change in filter cutoff when notes are played at different speeds.
Ok, so I've done some more experimenting, and read some other articles.

I think if the filter contour envelope has not completed AND the loudness contour envelope also has not completed before the next note is triggered, then the next note increases/adds to the cutoff level of filter.   Using white noise and lots of emphasis, and fiddling with different decay settings of both filter and loudness, I've been able to reproduce it by playing short notes slowly, then short notes quickly. The filter level increases if the new note starts quicker than the decay time of the loudness contour. My demo patch had extremely short decay times making the effect exaggerated, and unpredictable.

I think this is 'meant to be' behaviour, and it's just my odd patch that makes it feel like a fault.

Thanks for your patience and tips!
cheers Jeff
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 08:18:06 am by jeffbart »
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jeffrey
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LBH

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Hi,

Your welcome. Also thanks for your reports and inputs.

I think if the filter contour envelope has not completed AND the loudness contour envelope also has not completed before the next note is triggered, then the next note increases/adds to the cutoff level of filter. 

Yes something like this is what happens. You don't have to play fast.  I actually associate this behavior with legato style playing.

Found this - The bahavior is visualized in the attached image. The image show the behavior of a real Minimoog.
It's from this old article about the old Arturia Minimoog V that apparanty did'nt have this characteristica.: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/arturiaminimoog.htm

« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 06:13:07 pm by LBH »

waltercruz

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So, it still has the same behaviour (bug) today?

gregwalton42

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This behaviour is to accurately emulate what a real Minimoog does and was added by Arturia after criticism for NOT working this way

LBH

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So, it still has the same behaviour (bug) today?

Why do you use the word "bug" about a intended behavior?

Do you have the application? If so, why do you ask if a intended behavior is still there?

Have you read this thread including seen the attachments and the links, thats also about a characteristic behavior like this in the original Minimoog?

LBH

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I thought i would add this to my previoue post and to the thread as such about this characteristic Minimoog feature.

Here is a review from August 2016 about the new Model D Minimoog. This behavior is also mentioned.:
http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/moog-minimoog-model-d

Perhaps Arturia emulation of this behavior could be better and more expressive. - I'm no expert.

Also the effect don't happen just when playing MINI V rapid like also Arturia describe on their website. You have to play legato style, as you retrigger and stop the effect when you raise all fingers from the keyboard. I don't know if this is a bug, but it can be. As said i'm no expert. And it's many years ago i played a real Minimoog, so i can't remember how this feature excactly worked.

Arturia could you plaese check this out?

Anyway, having a contour effect that change according to your playing is'nt it it self a bug, as this kind of behavior is a original Minimoog behavior. I think only Arturias Minimoog emulation try to emulate this. No emulation can be and sound truly like a Minimoog on many sounds without a behavior like this. It's a feature that make Minimoog different from other synths, and so the sound.


waltercruz

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So, it still has the same behaviour (bug) today?

Why do you use the word "bug" about a intended behavior?

Do you have the application? If so, why do you ask if a intended behavior is still there?

Have you read this thread including seen the attachments and the links, thats also about a characteristic behavior like this in the original Minimoog?

Ok, I've read the article with more attention now, and it seems that Arturia Mini-V 3 does work more like a Minimoog now than the 2006 version. The captions on sos article ("his diagram shows the contour generated by a real Minimoog played rapidly.", "And here's the contour generated by Minimoog V, played in the same manner.") are swapped, that's what got me thinking about mini-v behaviour like a bug  ;D

LBH

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Yes the pictures was swapped when i read that article. That's why i attached the correct one. I did'nt mention the pictures was swapped because when reading the text i thought one should got it. Why talk about a normal feature for all synths like it's speciel for a Minimoog?

But the picture swap is confusing i agree. :)
That's also why i posted the last link for the Model D review. Reading that, there should be no doubt about the feature is a original Minimoog feature.

I still hope Arturia check if this feature behave correct like i mentioned in my previous post, and according to the rapid playing they only mention on the website.

waltercruz

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Now I think that Gordon Reid was right people to do the Monark review  :-X

LBH

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Now I think that Gordon Reid was right people to do the Monark review  :-X

Perhaps :)
Many reviews sound like they don't know about the hardware and the uniqe thigs and sounds of those.


I forgot the contour behavior also is there when playing rapid when using some decay. That make sense. Not sure though if MINI V is doing it correct, so a check up would be nice.

waltercruz

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from the original review of Gordon Reid on Arturia Minimoog 1.0, it seems that the reinitialised  envelopes happens only when playing fast.

http://web.archive.org/web/20160424040544/http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/arturiaminimoog.htm

Quote
However, when you play quickly and non-legato (ie. triggering every note) on a Minimoog, the envelopes are reinitialised from the points to which they have dropped during the previous release. If you play a typical ADSD envelope (as shown top right) this means that each successive contour 'climbs upward' if you play quickly, as shown in the second diagram. This is a critical element in the playing characteristic of the Minimoog, but Minimoog V does not emulate this, and its envelopes respond as shown in the third diagram, right. The detrimental effect of this is not subtle; imagine the difference between the loudness and brightness of a sound contoured by filters and amplifiers responding to the curves in the last two graphs shown.

waltercruz

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BTW, did the test copying the jeffbart to The Legend, and I got the expected (correct) behaviour.

Couldn't get the same behaviour on Monark (but Monark is harder to calibrate, there's no reading of the values)

waltercruz

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Ok, according to the Monark Manual, the behaviour on Monark happens all the time, I think:

Quote
The envelopes always continue from their current internal state. So, if you retrigger the enve- lope during a long release they do not jump to an initial value to start off the attack phase but continue smoothly from the current state. This envelope implementation in MONARK comes with an interesting side effect relevant to playing that somewhat makes up for the lack of re- sponsiveness to velocity sensitivity: With a short attack and long release times MONARK's en- velopes will keep building on top of themselves and actually keep rising. So notes played quickly in succession get more and more accentuated. You can either increase the attack or decrease the release time to avoid this behavior.

 

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