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Author Topic: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?  (Read 13697 times)

Koshdukai

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2016, 08:35:11 pm »
Samples can give way more complexity to the sound than just harmonics ever can. You would have to have an infinite amount of harmonics to re-create what a sample can do/sound like.

Let me ask you a question: why does one need to extract a waveform from a sample? A sample IS a waveform; a complex waveform but still a waveform.
I'll repeat what I've said already: «There's many levels of resynthesis and quality. [...]

I think no-one here is asking for high-fidelity high-dynamic resynthesis [...]»

Independently of the above, resynthesis (no matter how far or close from the original) allows fixed-time pitch variability, meaning, once the spectrum sequence is defined, that can be played at the same time independently of the pitch and vice-versa, you can speed up the time-slice "playing" at the same pitch.

So, a sample (section) is a waveform, yes. But you're locked to the sample-rate it was made, so playing a set of sample points (i.e a sound sample) at a different pitch (sample-rate) will mess with its playing duration (a very well known effect of sample playing).


Sampling is like a bit-mapped image and Resynthesis is like a vector-based picture.

If you zoom in a bit-mapped image, you'll see the pixels but if you zoom in a vector-based picture, you'll never seen any unique pixels... you'll just lose some visual context after a while of zooming.

Same thing with time slicing harmonic snapshots of a sound :)


But, I'm not trying to turn Synclavier V into the ultimate Resynthesis machine! I'm just asking for what was already possible in the 90's with it (although with a bit more modern and useful UI) :)



...and you'd still have the "simple" Sample Playing capability, once sample loading (and playing) was added to allow Sample Analysis ;)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 09:04:00 pm by Koshdukai »

LBH

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2016, 01:10:44 am »
Thanks again Koshdukai,

It's objective posts - just added a little "i would like that feature". That's fine.

If i read your posts correct, then we actually agree in vital parts.
The re-synthesis in Synclavier involve "Morphing" between points with different harmonic waveforms - just like you can do in Synclavier V now. The main difference between the original Synclavier and Synclavier V is you in the original used samples to extract the harmonic waves from part of the sample to create frames while you use the harmonic table in Synclavier V.

About the synthesis then i'm not sure i understand you, as i believe you can do it all in Synclavier V.
In the Synclavier V manual you can read this:
"1.1 What is Synclavier V?
The Synclavier V is a software emulation of the Synclavier Digital Synthesizer, combining Additive, FM (Frequency Modulation) and Timbre Frame synthesis"

To me the only thing that remain is how the waveforms is obtained for the timbre frame.
I still can't see the difference between using a sample or the harmonic table except you can extract your own Waveform from a sample instead of creating a waveform using the harmonic table.

This i qoute from you:
"If you want to speak of Wavetables, then consider each slice as an additive-based wave and a sequence of those slices to be your additive-based wave "table" but more powerful because the (time) "distance" between each of the waves in this "wave-table" is naturally variable and not artificially controlled by a (often linear) modulator, as usually is in wavetable synthesis."

I'm not sure i understand this even if i have thought about if there could be something about the time factor. I would think a waveform extracted from a sample and put in a wavetable as a wave you can recall to set the harmonics both as soundwave and modulator should give the same outcome. But yes - there might be a little difference or variation here. But i can't see it can be so significant if so.

Could the differences not be covered if we had 24 harmonics wavetables to set the harmonics in both the audio waveform and and modulator tables, and the possibility to import sample extracted waveforms from a seperate program to use the same way? I would believe so.

It's true that the simple sampler feature need to use samples. But there are so many samplers.

I should add, that i'm not a technician. But this is my understanding.

Best

LBH

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2016, 01:12:49 am »
Hi jackn2mpu

Some things has been answered. But let me add this directly to your post and question.

you say:
"Samples can give way more complexity to the sound than just harmonics ever can. You would have to have an infinite amount of harmonics to re-create what a sample can do/sound like."

No you only have possible infinite harmonics in a sample if the samples sample rate is infinite.
I theese days many talk about using 192000 HZ sample rate. So lets be crazy and say we have a sample sampled in 196000 Hz and play a fundamental note at 20 HZ. Then you'll have 192000/2/20 = 4800 harmonics in the sample including the fundamental and only if the sound you play on that 20 HZ note have those harmonics in the sound.
24 harmonics cover 4 octaves + a fifth above the fundamental note played if the sound have those harmonics.
A drawbar organ having a 16 feet and a 1 feet drawbar reach 4 octaves if you use both those drawbars. But it don't have all the harmonics between. Just to set it in perspective.
Also consider the purpose.

And then you ask me:
why does one need to extract a waveform from a sample? A sample IS a waveform; a complex waveform but still a waveform."

Synclavier did'nt use a whole sample for frame based resynthesis. It extracted calculated waveforms like you can read in the PDF in the post you said was well put by Koshdukai and in other places including in the availble posts and material in the forum about the subject. You can read reasons in the PDF too.
So if you wan't the original Synclavier feature that you and others request, then you need to extract waveforms from your samples, use points and use "Morphing" between frames, and use the needed time to do so.
Perhaps Hartmans Neuron used samples for resynthesis in another way.

Are you sure the feature you actually wan't is'nt excisting in samplers and other synths allready?
 
EDIT:
Found this. It's still speciel rendered samples but perhaps more what you are looking for. This i perhaps could use. Think it do things in a different way than other synths. But it's possible to create sound in that direction using softsynths and effects. Perhaps not quite the same.

Neuron Synthesizer Intro Axel Hartmann:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWIH6zhKR8s

Hartmann Neuron Demo Part1+2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeumP2tRqpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zmnj3AmSbY

Hartmann Neuron Demo - More regular sounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mvPVxPeU6w

EDIT END.


Best
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 03:41:22 am by LBH »

Koshdukai

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2016, 01:38:24 am »
The re-synthesis in Synclavier involve "Morphing" between points with different harmonic waveforms - just like you can do in Synclavier V now. The main difference between the original Synclavier and Synclavier V is you in the original used samples to extract the harmonic waves from part of the sample to create frames while you use the harmonic table in Synclavier V.
No, the difference is that a fully setup Synclavier was able to use both methods: what we have now in Synclavier V (though limited to 4 partial timbres) plus the Analysis method as a helper tool to build those time slices based of a sample.


About the synthesis then i'm not sure i understand you, as i believe you can do it all in Synclavier V.
In the Synclavier V manual you can read this:
"1.1 What is Synclavier V?
The Synclavier V is a software emulation of the Synclavier Digital Synthesizer, combining Additive, FM (Frequency Modulation) and Timbre Frame synthesis"
Yeah I'm saying exactly that :)
That's what we have now: Additive (harmonic drawing) and FM (modulator editing) on a timeline. Extremely powerful stuff already.
In the current version, the only "computer-aided" layer we have is the Harmonic drawing tools and waveshape spectrum presets together with the Harmonic Select options.
There's a lot more layers that could be added to the existing time-sliced Additive+FM synthesis engine capabilities of Synclavier.

The Sample (loading)+Analysis is just 1 of many of those "computer-aided" layers that can be added to tackle what we have in Synclavier V.
NED was in the right path of technical feature evolution, adding to the time-based Additive+FM the digital sampling capabilities and then merging those 2 into Resynthesis by using the already existing computational power in the instrument.


To me the only thing that remain is how the waveforms is obtained for the timbre frame.
I still can't see the difference between using a sample or the harmonic table except you can extract your own Waveform from a sample instead of creating a waveform using the harmonic table.
It's almost like the difference between auto-tracing a photo and doing a hand-drawing from scratch ;)


It's true that the simple sampler feature need to use samples. But there are so many samplers.
Sample playing would be just a nice additional bonus, once sample loading had to be implemented for Analysis to work.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 01:45:38 am by Koshdukai »

LBH

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2016, 02:09:38 am »
It's almost like the difference between auto-tracing a photo and doing a hand-drawing from scratch ;)

Choosing a set of pre made  harmonics (Even created from samples) in a menu/ wavetable is a fast lane too. And don't need that much work.  :)

I guess Arturia do what they wan't to do.

As i have written in the forum very early, then i could see a purpose for extracting waveforms from a sample, and also for using very long samples amplitude as modulation source. The first apparantly was a possibility. I just began to think that Synclaviers harmonics feature could be used instead if more pre-made waveforms that the saw, triangle and square odd and even filters and so on was availble for instant use. The re-synthesis is there. Just without exstracting from samples.

And yes the "normal" sampler feature is'nt there. It's a matter if you think you can do without it or not. A good sampler requiere many samples to cover a full range keyboard and velocity layers. But for instance for simple one shots it take less.

I still see no reason to pay to much money for the sample feature. And i see no reason to put to much developing time in the feature. If it can be done cheap and don't take to much space on my drives, then it's okay for me to get sample features. But as i see it there are better and more fleksible alternatives.

But thanks for helping me to get more understanding on how Synclavier actually worked.

Best



jackn2mpu

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2016, 12:50:46 pm »
It's almost like the difference between auto-tracing a photo and doing a hand-drawing from scratch ;)

Choosing a set of pre made  harmonics (Even created from samples) in a menu/ wavetable is a fast lane too. And don't need that much work.  :)

I guess Arturia do what they wan't to do.

As i have written in the forum very early, then i could see a purpose for extracting waveforms from a sample, and also for using very long samples amplitude as modulation source. The first apparantly was a possibility. I just began to think that Synclaviers harmonics feature could be used instead if more pre-made waveforms that the saw, triangle and square odd and even filters and so on was availble for instant use. The re-synthesis is there. Just without exstracting from samples.

And yes the "normal" sampler feature is'nt there. It's a matter if you think you can do without it or not. A good sampler requiere many samples to cover a full range keyboard and velocity layers. But for instance for simple one shots it take less.

I still see no reason to pay to much money for the sample feature. And i see no reason to put to much developing time in the feature. If it can be done cheap and don't take to much space on my drives, then it's okay for me to get sample features. But as i see it there are better and more fleksible alternatives.

But thanks for helping me to get more understanding on how Synclavier actually worked.

Best
You see no reason for having the sampling/resynthesis for the way you work and that's fine. There's nothing that says you need to get the update if/when it ever happens. But there are those of us who do want all that's possible with the Synclavier, especially when it's something the original hardware can do. As to space on hard drives that means nothing as drive storage is cheap nowadays.
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Madtux

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2016, 05:29:11 am »
I paid for the upgrade to V5.  Everything is great but I hadn't done my research on the Synclavier.  So now Im still using Kontakt for sampling sounds which is ok but i wanted something that had a more vintage approach.  It's kind of like releasing the Jupiter 8 without the arpeggio.

LBH

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Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2016, 01:10:51 am »
Is this what you what regarding resynthesis?
Did Synclavier all this including the tuning, playmodes and other parameters?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXNa70ea_iQ

 

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