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Author Topic: Appalling sate of affairs...  (Read 12483 times)

LowFrequencyAbduction

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Appalling sate of affairs...
« on: April 03, 2007, 08:40:21 pm »
As someone who's been involved in the electronic music making scene for twenty years now, I feel that the current state of music support forums is getting totally out of hand. Looking at KVR recently, I couldn't help but notice that someone had started a topic about the Jupiter-8V demo becoming available, and the poster was asking for users comments on how close they thought it was to the original What happened? What now normally happens on forum support sites such as KVR, a synth-snobbery bitch fight!

Why is it that owners of the original machine don't seem to appreciate what VA's and plugins are offering the music making community right now? There are a lot of people out there who cannot afford 2,600 to 3,000 UK pounds for a good condition used JP-8, but who desire something close to it's wonderful sound. All I read on both KVR and Sonicstate were JP-8 owners gushing over the fact that they have a "REV A" model, or that the plugin won't be able to emulate the "lush PWM", or won't have the same "harmonic tightness" or that it might "alias too much on hi string sounds" (without even trying the demo for themselves!), followed by sickening mutual back patting over how much of a superior possition they are in, not having to degrade themselves by buying a lowly software plugin and having the shame of running it alongside such vintage hardware as a real JP-8! :x  

I, for one HAVE used the Roland Jupiter-8 for two periods in my life and I have to say that I was truely amazed by just how good the Jupiter-8V actually sounds, and knowing how Arturia always take advantage of regular updates to get even closer to the originals sound (as they did with the MiniMg-V), I'm sure with an update or two, it will get even closer with time. I really love the Galaxy feature and the step sequencer and being able to insertt effects into the synth structure is great for being able to make sounds that even the original cannot make. Even though the demo only comes with 20 preset sounds, it still manages to give a good impression of what the full version will offer with it's 400 presets (not that a plugin like this is that much about presets anyway) and I'm also glad that it didn't require a USB key just to try it out.

I will be placing an order for the Jupiter-8V (as soon as an e-mail question is replied to that I sent to Arturia a few days ago, but I understand that with the tradeshow in Germany last week, things will be a little crazy right now and I just have to wait my turn), and cannot wait to get my hands on it so that I can save the sounds I'm comming up with!  :)
Low Frequency Abduction

poropat

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Appalling sate of affairs...
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2007, 10:38:23 pm »
I Partially agree on what you say. It's not everyone could afford
a real JP8, and maybe the V could save some situations. :D

But about

Quote
...and knowing how Arturia always take advantage of regular updates to get even closer to the originals sound (as they did with the MiniMg-V), I'm sure with an update or two, it will get even closer with time


It was true for the miniMgV and the CS80V (even if we are expecting
the version 2). But now the politic seemed change much, see these posts:

http://forums.arturia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1722

 :?
MoogModularV,CS80V,MinimoogV,Arp2600V,
prophetV, Jupiter8V, SEMV

LowFrequencyAbduction

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Appalling sate of affairs...
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2007, 11:20:24 pm »
I can see your point with the lack of updates, but most companies like this move to a set plan and it's difficult to change that because of changes in computer technology. I was in this same position with G-Force/G-Media over the UB updates for impOSCar, Minimonsta, M-Tron and Oddity and when I saw they were about to release a new product (called VSM), it seemed to everyone that they weren't working on UB updates at all, but new products instead, which made a lot of people very angry indeed!

Luckily, I knew better, as due to e-mail networking with the joint owner of the company (Dave Spiers), I was lucky enough to know that Apple changing over to Intel chips caused a lot of problems for a lot of companies and because I'd switched from my G5 Mac rather too early, I became a beta tester for many companies and could see the amount of background work going on behind closed doors was quite amazing, for as well as them having to devote time to making new product releases, they really were trying to move at the fastest speed possible on the UB updates.

I am sure Arturia will release an update for the 2600-V (and CS80-V), it will just take time. It's over a year now since Apple made the switch to Intel and not every company has product updates available yet, so it's not just Arturia in this possition and when they've commited to plans for making new hardware products (such as the Origin) with tradeshow deadlines to meet and a new software product in the Jupiter-8V, it's difficult to have the time to fit everything in and keep everyone happy.

That said though, they should post an announcment or at least mention something in the newsletter so that people who have invested in Arturia products know what's going on and feel more secure about the future.
Low Frequency Abduction

Sweep

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Appalling sate of affairs...
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2007, 11:54:28 pm »
Regarding your first post, I agree entirely. I think there's a lot of snobbery among some vintage synth owners - and probably half their reason for owning a vintage synth is because they've got something that other people haven't got. I've come across people who make vast claims for the wonderful analogue sound of certain synths, and they can't tell their analogue synth from a virtual analogue on blind tests. Nor in some cases can they correctly identify analogue synths on records, and gush about how wonderful the Prophet 5 was on a track when in fact they've been listening to a Fairlight, or whatever.

I think one of the great things about Arturia's synths is not only that they bring the features and sound of particular synths to a vast number of people, but they also exceed the capabilities of the originals. The 2600V is a prime example of that.

I'm even sceptical about the attitude that says these softsynths are a cheaper alternative to the `real thing.'  I have a Mg Voyager, and I also make extensive use of Arturia's MiniMg V. The Arturia isn't a poor alternative to a `real' Mg. Similarly I sold my Korg MS20 and I use the Korg Legacy version. Admittedly the Legacy didn't replace the original - several instruments did that, in different ways. But I don't miss the original MS20 and the Legacy is great to work with.

What it comes down to is music, and whether an instrument gives you what you need. There are pros and cons with soft emulations and original synths - but there are a whole lot more pros with the softsynths than many people realise, or will admit. And there are people for whom music-making isn't really the main thing. They're more interested in emulating their heroes (many of whom have already abandoned the vintage synths these people so covet) and interested in their fancied superiority over people who don't happen to own the particular vintage synth(s) they have.

I expect to see the status of soft synths improving with time, as people like Brian Eno use them more extensively and show what can be done with them. But there will always be people who'll claim `these soft synths just aren't the same as the real thing' while also being unable to tell the difference on records or blind tests, or being unable to tell when a sound may be different while not being the slightest bit worse.

mee3d

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Appalling sate of affairs...
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 01:11:31 am »
I'm not sure it's snobbery to be honest... naturally there are an elite out there that love their hardware more then life itself but there are also a lot of hardware owners that just don't dig the idea of software.

These people have the money to go buy the VSTi's if they needed... it's not a matter of not having the money to support both hardware and software it's just that whatever they have experienced in the past does not match up to the power of their hardware.

There are many reasons for this ... firstly, some of the early VSTi's were just plainly poor ... when I tried Steinbergs Model-E and Waldorfs PPG 2V against my hardware Model D and my lovely Wave 2.3 there was no comparison (someone redo a PPG VSTi please!), but things have much improved.

Also, I think IMO that a lot has to do with how the sound gets to your ears. I have owned all the main hardware polysynths in the past and my present collection stems to about 10 vintage synths. All my vintage hardware goes into a mixer with some hardware outboard fx before it gets to my DAW, so that I can play without having to turn the Mac on... this gives it a powerful, often overdriven warm sound... in comparison, my Mac is crystal clean coming out of a MOTU 828mkII into my genelecs ... there isn't the warmth of overdriven analog circuits to help colour the sound.

I have both hardware and software and I love them both on their own merits but I would not part with my hardware just yet. The software helps on those days when the memoryMg isn't holding pitch and it's great for the immediacy of it but there's something about a great slab of metal, wood and carbon that can't be replicated in software.... for the moment!
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Sweep

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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 02:17:03 am »
Yes. I was careful to say `some' vintage synth owners, though it's true I did concentrate on the `some' rather than speaking more widely. I had in mind the kind of people being described in the original post, who represent a type who post on some of the Internet forums. They're not representative of serious musicians, who tend to have the more practical approach you've described.

I think you've made a much-needed point about how you treat the sound. What sort of path the signal takes and how it gets treated makes a big difference, whether it's originally from software or from hardware. I've seen people compare a straight softsynth sound unfavourably with a hardware synth going through processing or at least through a decent amp, and that isn't comparing like with like.

Even worse, I heard a supposed A/B comparison of a softsynth (not an Arturia one, but one I'm very familiar with) with the hardware synth it emulated, where the software was obviously going through a pretty basic soundcard. Result - the softsynth sounded like a 1980s Space Invader game, very cheap when compared with the original.

That's a problem Arturia will be addressing with the Origin, of course showing what software can do with a good processor and when treated like any hardware keyboard. It makes sense as a strategy.

LowFrequencyAbduction

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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 02:18:35 am »
Sweep - I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in my thoughts! It's getting harder to tell these days what's real analogue and what isn't (for example, a Creamware Pro-12 ASB and a real Prophet-5 side by side sound pretty damn close) and it's getting better year after year as computer technology gets better and better. Another valid point is that there are extra features that bring the unit up-to-date and can sometimes give it an edge over the original.

mee3d - Maybe I was a little harsh to call it snobbery, so I'll go with your more polite term of elitist. I agree that many hardware owners don't dig the idea of software synths (I saw an interview with Dave Smith on Google video recently where he talked of his ground breaking work on software synthesizers and how when he showed them at trade shows, no one wanted to know). I was an early convert and remember when I had Cubase VST (version 3.6, I think it was) on the PC and played my first plugin synth, it was terrible, and even when I bought Model-E, I was chuffed to have a synth on my computer, but having owned a Mg Sauce, wasn't convinced. I'm happy to say though that I didn't let it put me off and when I got the M-Tron and Oddity, I was convinced that things were getting better!

I suggested to Korg the very same point you make about how the audio gets to our ears and said it would be a good idea to make a version of the MS-20 controller (for the Legacy Collection) with an audio interface built in that would allow the use to patch audio directly into it (rather than having to do this via software) and add some kind of device to the output stage (like the valves in the more grown-up Electribes) to add a punch, bite and dirt to the sound that may otherwise be missing. The said that they too had thought about this, but didn't go ahead with it because the cost to the buyer would have been more and they thought no one would have bought it! Maybe the Origin will go towards changing peoples minds about this?

Oh, and I totally agree - please, someone re-do the PPG!!!
Low Frequency Abduction

JWaltman

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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 10:28:47 am »
let them first..please..finally update the ProphetV!!!!! Still can't use it due to a bug, which has been known for 7 months now!

When I open a 2nd instance, the sound just crackles on both instances..totally unusable..they know it, as lots of people with dual G5 machines have this problem.

LowFrequencyAbduction

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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 11:29:34 am »
Well, yes! I would think that now the Jupiter-8V is shipping that it's time to address the known issues with the software they already make (while making the Origin ready for release), rather than another new software release.
Low Frequency Abduction

poropat

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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 12:00:50 pm »
Quote
let them first..please..finally update the ProphetV!!!!! Still can't use it due to a bug, which has been known for 7 months now!

When I open a 2nd instance, the sound just crackles on both instances..totally unusable..they know it, as lots of people with dual G5 machines have this problem.


It's such kind of behaviour I pointed in my previous post.
Personaly I have hardware synths, but I like the soft too because
of many new possibilities.
But something I can't support, it's when they let users with bugs
forever. And very slow reactions from support.
I have a real jupiter 8, I would like to buy the virtual, but I don't
because at first I want to know if people have problems, and
I'm afraid then they don't correct. (like for ARP2600V).
MoogModularV,CS80V,MinimoogV,Arp2600V,
prophetV, Jupiter8V, SEMV

LowFrequencyAbduction

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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 12:06:11 pm »
I have just become a beta tester and will be testing the Jupiter-8V at length. It seems to me from what I've seen that Arturia are stepping things up on the software testing front, so I think anyone who has (or has had) problems will be greeted with updates in the not too distant future.
Low Frequency Abduction

JWaltman

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Appalling sate of affairs...
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 12:45:12 pm »
I offered them to be testing the betas of prophet, but I just never got a response..

LowFrequencyAbduction

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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 10:09:31 pm »
The same thing happened to me the first time I asked, so the second time I decided to take a slightly different route than e-mailing!
Low Frequency Abduction

poropat

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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 01:09:28 am »
Quote from: "JWaltman"
I offered them to be testing the betas of prophet, but I just never got a response..


Me, I beta tested Arp2600V, they didn't correct every bugs I found,
and for prophetV I never got a response too.
MoogModularV,CS80V,MinimoogV,Arp2600V,
prophetV, Jupiter8V, SEMV

JWaltman

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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2007, 11:05:58 am »
:evil:

things are not managed very well at arturia :(

 

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