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Author Topic: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback  (Read 623 times)

SwissMac

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Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« on: November 26, 2020, 10:23:07 am »
Hi all

Just got my new MkII 61 and triying to integrate it into MainStage (via MIDI USER Mode I guess). Some questions regarding MainStage Integration are in this forum but they're all are unanswered. After analyzing the various questions 99% goes back to MIDI Parameter Feedback, a feature that every serious MIDI controller should be capable of (even my cheap Behringer X-Touch Mini can handle it perfectly).

As its name suggests, Parameter Feedback is when the DAW (and Mainstage) sends out/back the current CC values to the MIDI controller and the controller updates its values to those. MainStage sends out CC values a) upon patch change and b) if a controller is modified on screen or elsewhere. For instance:

- Knob A assigned to cutoff, current value 64. MainStage patch change -> cutoff value of new patch is 127 -> with no feedback support, Knob A has still 64 and whenever I touch this control, cutoff jumps to 64 +/-1.
- Same for Buttons and their LED Status, switch pedals etc. Without Parameter Feedback support, this goes out of synch.

Both of the above scenarios are show stoppers when using MKII on stage as live keyboard. According MainStage Changelog Version 3.4.1: "MainStage now sends a MIDI-Feedback to connected Arturia KeyLab-Controllers". The question is: can Keylab handle those feedback messages? According my first attempts it doesnt, which would be very sad for a keyboard that claims to be professional. As said, my 46$ Behringer X TOUCH MINI handles all of this incl. buttons, LEDs, knobs with ease. But I dont want to gig with the MkII and the X TOUCH MINI on top of it as the only use for the MKII would then be a "dumb" Keyboard  ...

Any thoughts/experiences on this?     

Thanks and cheers
Markus
             

LBH

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Re: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2020, 09:36:30 pm »
Hi and welcome to Arturia forums.

Have you set the Keylab MKII Encoders (and perhaps Mainstage too) to work in the same Realative mode?
Keylab MKIIs Encoders can be set to work in Absolute mode 3 different Relative modes.

I don't have either, but perhaps it's about that.

Cheers

SwissMac

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Re: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2020, 06:56:58 pm »
Thanks for your input. Yes, the encoders do work in relative mode but its rather a workaround as one can not see the underlying CC values in the dispaly when changing. Just shows "INC" or "DEC". Not usable on stage whithout a computer screen front face. However, it does not solve the other problem re. switch and led states.

As mentioned, besides the X Touch Mini even my Behringer BCF2000 (some 8 years ago) was able to handle MIDI Parameter Feeback in so called USER Mode, as well as MCU Mode of all colors. The Arturia MKII is -besides having a 61 keyboard attached to it - no different, just 3 times the price.

I guess I'll return the MKII with the review "unusable for live performances", which is very sad, as the hardware itself is of great quality. Unfortunately this quality standard is not adopted by software/firmware engineering. 

                       

LBH

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Re: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2020, 07:55:27 pm »
Shall i understand, that if you set both your mainstage assigment and your controller controls to work in Absolute mode, then the controllers leds will not show the value?

Beside that - , then does mainstage and the controller support a pickup feature to avoid value jumps in any cases?

And does buttons set to Toogle functionality not show the on/ off state, if mainstage is set to send the current stage? I believe it should be so, if everything is set up correct. So if it does'nt work, then i suggest you ask Arturia support.

SwissMac

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Re: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2020, 09:42:38 pm »
Thanks for your feedback.

A Value Pickup feature is a hardware controller functionality (in this case the Keylab) in order to not send any new values out to the DAW (or any MIDI host such as Mainstage) until the currently set value has been "physically" reached. This to avoid value jumps. In Keylab, such a feature can only be enabled in "Global Config" for DAW Mode (but not for USER or MIDI Mode or on a "per controller" basis).

Furthermore, the problem is a general one and not only MainStage related, so MainStage is out of scope as root cause. It can easily be replicated with MidiOx, for instance, where the mentioned Behringer controllers do as expected, Arturia does not (guess due lack of midi parameter feedback).

IMHO, this is an obvious functional flaw and - based on various customer feedbacks re. Arturia support - I rather send the device back as I have only a few days left to do so

Thx again and cheers. 




 

LBH

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Re: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2020, 11:34:15 pm »
A controllers Pick Up function shall also be supported by the DAW/ Software to work. I have a controller with a Pick Up function. But my DAW does'nt support it.
I don't use Abletone Live, but it have a Pick Up feature called Soft Takeover. I even think, it can be used with a controller, that does'nt have a Pick Up function.
I assume, that you in Absolute mode can see the values, that you wan't to see though. Then the problem is about Pick Up.


I know, the Pads on Keylab does respond to messages send from Ableton Live.
So it's not that Keylab MKII can't recieve some feedback. But i don't know in which situations and an with how many controls, it can do it - or how it's displayed. I would think, that there is a feedback going on, and i think it should be displayed.

What you do to feel good about what you are doing is up to you.
I hope you find a solution that work for you.

Thanks for your info.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 11:54:40 pm by LBH »

SwissMac

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Re: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2020, 11:34:01 am »
Against my statement above I just noticed that pickup behavior can be set for faders in USER (MIDI) Mode as well. However, this makes no sense if the Keylab doesn't update values fed back from the MIDI host.

And yes, I noticed that the pads somehow can be "controlled" by the midi host, but only through Note On/Off messages.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 11:36:08 am by SwissMac »

LBH

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Re: Keylab MKII MIDI Parameter Feedback
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2020, 03:33:39 pm »
And yes, I noticed that the pads somehow can be "controlled" by the midi host, but only through Note On/Off messages.
The pads can in example tell if a clip is present or not in Ableton Live. I think that can be seen in the video " Ep. 3: Integration with DAWS" here: https://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid-synths/keylab-mkii/media
That's also why i wonder, why if in example the state of a button does'nt show.


I can also add, that a DAW might also need to be told to feedback values to controllers to get feedback to work.
But i assume, that you have done this or don't need to, since you mention your other controller work. But you don't tell, if it's with the same software like i've assumed, - so just in case.

I btw think any controller and any music software should work with any value feedback and any Pick Up feature.
And endless Encoders should in generel work much better. Imho absolute controls in generel seems more stable and precise in setting parameter values, and give a better true control feeling.

Cheers.

 

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