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Author Topic: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation  (Read 443 times)

Deech123

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analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« on: March 23, 2020, 05:48:22 pm »
Hi guys,

I have now the keylab49 essenstial for 3 days, was a hell of 3 days to make is work as should in Cubase 10.
but now I think I found a bug in analog lab 4.

first my setup : Cubase 10 pro, keylab 49 essenstial with analog lab 4.
what else : I made in midi control center under USER1 a new mapping on midi channel 2. and this for all round knobs on the upper right and all sliders.

in that user map I linked Cutoff knob to CC20, then Resonance knob to CC21 and so on.

so first thing I do is making a midi record with analog lab 4.
perfect, then add knob automation on that (ofcourse map select set to analog lab).

when playback, perfect ! the knobs does react on the vst analog lab.

okey, then make a new track in cubase with an other vst, like sylenth1.
I set this to midi channel2, and then ofcourse on the keyboard I set the map select to user1.

I record the midi part, perfect.
then I start to record automation with the knob CC20 and CC21, and there it goes wrong. these knobs still get data from analog lab that pass thru the vst.
so what I mean is, when I deactivate READ automation on the analog lab 4, then when moving the knobs on the keyboard while recording automation on my sylenth1 vst, perfect !, but if I want to record automation on an other vst, while the analog lab midi part is playing WTIH read automation, then the automation of analog lab is disturbing the current automation record on my sylenth1.

the moment I deactivate the read on analog lab and then I do read/write automation on that sylenth1, perfect no interference.
so seems the moment analog lab 4 has automation, then it will pass that automation thru all other vst's using the same knobs.....

any idea how to solve this?

D.

LBH

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2020, 11:59:33 pm »
Hi again from this thread: https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=101467.msg168753#new.  I see you have edited your last post after i've read it, so i have'nt seen the edit before now.

I made in midi control center under USER1 a new mapping on midi channel 2. and this for all round knobs on the upper right and all sliders.

in that user map I linked Cutoff knob to CC20, then Resonance knob to CC21 and so on.

then I start to record automation with the knob CC20 and CC21, and there it goes wrong. these knobs still get data from analog lab that pass thru the vst.
Analog Lab can't pass anything to other applications.
Do you automate the midi cc's or do you automate the individual applications cutoff and resonance automation parameters?

so what I mean is, when I deactivate READ automation on the analog lab 4, then when moving the knobs on the keyboard while recording automation on my sylenth1 vst, perfect !, but if I want to record automation on an other vst, while the analog lab midi part is playing WTIH read automation, then the automation of analog lab is disturbing the current automation record on my sylenth1.

the moment I deactivate the read on analog lab and then I do read/write automation on that sylenth1, perfect no interference
Are you sure, you have'nt any global automation going on? it sound like it. It's the automation track that send the messages, and not Analog Lab. And if the same message is send to other applications, then it will affect both.

Be sure, that if you have automated the midi cc numbers, then the parameters has to be midi CH + midi CC for a track, and you shall be sure that this messages can be send and  recieved correct.
In that regard:
I made in midi control center under USER1 a new mapping on midi channel 2. and this for all round knobs on the upper right and all sliders.
Does this mean, that you have changed the midi channel for each knob and fader individually?


Do you have issues, if you use Part/ Event automation?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 01:36:13 am by LBH »

Deech123

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2020, 10:20:32 am »
Hi ,

always hard to explain something, but I took some time to make screenshot collection where I will give you some info about, then you will see that in my opinion the analog lab is buggy.

so what you see on the screenshot : 3 different midi part : 1/2/3 in blue and with yellow rectangle around (also their own automation is inside the yellow box).
then you see on the right the 3 used VST's : sylenth1, engine2 and then analog lab.

then you see that I marked some buttons RED and GREEN.
what did I do : for track nr2 = analog lab, I recorded automation of the ANL cutoff (red) and resonance(green) button. you can see in the yellow part number 2 that there are 2 automation track. (while recording the automation the keyboars was set to : map select analog lab and on midi chanel 1.

then I switched of the read automation of ANL.
then I switch keyboard  map select to user 1 (that has it's own midi mapping made in midi control center), and listing to MIDI channel 2.
then I my engine2 VST, I did learn CC, and as you see I have 2 sliders (green and red), the red one is CC20, the green one is CC21.
when recording the automation I do move the knobs on keylab keyboard (cutoff and resonance ) and this do work perfect. as you see on my screenshot in part 3, you can see 2 automation tracks and if you look well you can see at the end of the name on that automation you can see 20 and 21 (corresponding with the CC20/CC21).

so far so good.
then I do the same for sylenth1, I record only the cutoff, also first I did learn the sylenth1 vst that the red marked button cutoff also as CC20 on map select USER1 midi 2.
when I did the actual recording of the sylenth1 automation I kept the READ automation of ENGINE2 ON, but I did switch off the automation READ of ANL.
to test first.

so when recording automation of sylenth1, the automation on engine2 was also working, no problem at all.

then for the test, and this is what you see on the screenshot, I activated the READ automation on the ANL track and then I removed the automation on the sylenth1 and tried to record the cutoff button on sylenth 1 while the test was playing and the READ automation on ANL was on.

and this you see on my left under part of picture, the blue rectangle screenshot.
you can see on sylenth1 automation a RED line I draw to show you, that was the action I was performing with the keyboard knob on the keyboard.
but if you look what happened while recording and even after, you can see the yellow line; so instead of going down, it's going up...
why... well that's my point for 3 days now, when ANL has also automation this automation will constant conflict that particular button i'm also using to record other automation on a total other vst with total different CC code.
as you see in the blue rectangle, look at the yellow lin of the automation on ANL, you can see the cutoff there is rising up.
so when I recorded the automation on part 1 sylenth1 vst knob Cutoff, user map1 CC20, while moving the know downwards(or against clock) the knob on my vst of sylenth1 was fighting to get up, since it seems that ANL was pushing it's own CC automation with total different CC code to that knob to be master.

hope this info is a bit more better to understand now to see that only switching off the READ on ANL vst solve this, but that's not the purpose to work that I have to switch off every time. and fun part is, if I do a test with 6 different vst, but not one is ANL, and then I record for every vst with the same knobs with the same CC20/CC21, then there is no internal fight on those knobs at all.
the moment there is one instance of ANL that uses the same knobs for automation, then while recording other automation on other vst's, with the same knobs, then the ANL is messing this up while recording. For me this is a hugh bug that maybe nobody noticed, or in my keyboard or in my analog lab (but I did not found any clue on that) ANL is like the master and all the rest is slave and must listen to ANL automation while recording.(overwritting).

and yes to your question, ANL is on MIDI 1, and the 2 knobs cutoff and resonance have a cc like in the 70ths....
the other vst like sylenth 1 and engine2 are on MIDI2, and have total different CC(20+21).
and it's not my cubase that is messing it up, it's like the ANL vst is still sending info back to the keyboard and the keyboard picks it up and then send it back to the automation that i'm recording.

D.


« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 10:29:55 am by Deech123 »

LBH

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2020, 06:41:24 pm »
Again - Analog Lab can't pass automation messages from a automation track in your DAW or midi cc messages from your controller.
Analog Lab is a normal plugin. It's not a part of your controller or anything else. Analog Lab is'nt a master for slaves outside Analog Lab.
When you disable a automation tracks Read, then the DAW just does'nt read the automation track. And when it read it, then the DAW send the messages to Analog Lab, but for some reason apparantly also to other destinations.

A guess is that Cubase somehow is set to send midi from the automation tracks (perhaps from the automation tracks where you automate a midi cc number) to your controller, so that interfere with what you are controlling with the controller in real time.
But as i said in the other thread, then i don't know enough about Cubase to guide you in how to set things up in Cubase.

Another guess is, that you somehow has some merge automation going on in your DAW. I see the track with the red line you mention is using Global Average. As far as i know, then that merge Part and Track automation to an average output in Cubase.
Automation Merge Modes: https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro/v10.5/en/cubase_nuendo/topics/automation/automation_automation_merge_modes_r.html?hl=global%2Cautomation

Do you have the same issues if you do not automate the midi cc numbers, but only automate the named automation parameters?
I see you have automation for both midi cc and for the named parameters in your screenshots.
(To me what you have in the rectangle named 2 look best, as it look like it use application parameters. But i don't know enough about Cubase. )

And do you have issues, if you don't use any Global settings, if that's possible?

I suggest you ask in Steinberg forum about automation issues.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 06:44:19 pm by LBH »

Deech123

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 08:51:02 pm »
HI there,

well for me it's so frustrating  to explain.
I know you don't have cubase, and I really do appreciate your help !!!
but I work already over 14 years with cubase, and i'm 10000000% sure that there is a bug somewhere in ANL4.

I have tons of vst's of all different suppliers, and all of them to not interfear with keyboard knobs when recording automation.
I did a test today with 22 VST's, all with the 2 knobs CC20/21 on my keylab, all recorded one by one.
first track, then I left automation read on., then records with same actual knobs on the keyboard track 2, no problem, up to 22 vst.
no problem at all.
number 23 was ANL, also recorded automation with those 2knobs, then the moment I add a 24vst, and then tried to record also automation with the same 2 knobs, then these knobs ON the vst started to fight with the automation of ANL.
then I deleted the ANL track, and tried again.. no problem at.

so for me it's quit clear that somehow ANL is sending not only automation to it's own vst plugin, but seems to disturb other recording automation, or by sending also this information to the other vst that i'm recording, or to send ANL automation back to the keyboard actual knobs and mess up this for the recording.


by the way, do you have any idea why the keyboard itself is sending every second a puls to cubase with this info : see attachement.
the moment I take out the midi cable of the keyboard this stops....

D
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 10:06:53 pm by Deech123 »

Deech123

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 11:17:36 pm »
EDIT, I think I found the actual thing that mess up all.

I noticed when recording ANL automation, when moving a knob I can see that instead of 1 automation track it's writing 2 of them.
and what is curious about it, look at my screenshot :

I have an instance that starts with Analoglab.....esonance
and the same is written as : MIdiChan.....armonic..

both does the same, when I play the song then both automations are controlling the same knob in the ANL vst.
when I then try to record other vst automation like on Sylenth1, then it mess up.

when I ONLY delete the automation on ANL that starts with Analogla... and then I try to record the automation, no problem at all.

so it seems the moment ANL vst is recording Analoglab..... commands, these automation tracks are messing it up all the time....

I find this very strange.
any idea how come that ANL is writing 2X information for the same knob movement?

think this will sort out all the problems.

D

Deech123

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2020, 09:40:26 pm »
HI LBH,

you see i'm not that crazy :-)

meantime I did a total reinstall of keyboard, same thing.
and I what is nice to see, when I have 2 automation tracks on ANL4, so one with the actual analoglab knob nameCC and then the midichange CC track.
and then I switch the keyboard to user 1 with MIDI channel2, and I just play the song, then I can see on the screen of the automation that P1 parameter is going up from 1 to 2000, so I can see on the screen of the keyboard while the keyboard is supposed to listen to the VST sylenth1 on midichannel2, that the automation value of P1 of ANL4 is changing the P1 values... so what I tought was exact correct, there is kind of bug or in Analog lab, or in de driver or arturia keylabl essential 49. I have latest software 1.1.6.

is there any way I can try to go back to lower version?

so for what I think it's not really the VST ANL that has the bug, I think or it's the keyboard software that is still passing info to the knobs while it can not listen since midi channel is not same, or it's in the driver of arturia keylab essential49 (and that's what is selected in midi IN on every channel in cubase).

but glad you found out that there is somekind of actual problem :-)

I contacted today Arturia, with the link to this topic, I hope they will take the time to look at it.

D.
D

LBH

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2020, 09:43:42 pm »
Sorry.

I actually made a test with a NI instrument, That was the same. So i have removed my post. before you posted. It was'nt about that. I was'nt aware as i as i had written, then i don't work that way normally.

Analoglab.....esonance is Analog Lab resonance - and that i would like to be recorded as that should be the automation parameter.
MIdiChan.....armonic.. is the standard midi CC (71) for resonance/ harmonic/ Timbre. I assume that is set be default for Analog Lab mode. In Cubase you see it as "CC71 (Harmonic)".

I don't know why you get 2 automation tracks.

Do you also get the issue if you control Analog Lab in USER mode instead of Analog mode?

So i can't confirm any bugs afterall.

EDIT:
As you refer to my deleted post, then i add it here, not to confuse. I do thik it's a strange behavior, but  perhaps not anything that's a bug or has to do with the behavior you see.

Here is the deleted post:
I normally work with automation in a different way. But now i have tried to test as close to your scenario as i can without having a Arturia controller with Analog Lab mode.
I mainly use DAW automation and Novation Automap.

I actually see a strange thing when working the way you work.
My DAW write the Control Number as automation parameter, but it actually record the automation parameter that the control currently is set to use. If i switch the parameter in Analog Lab for that control for a recorded automation for that control, then it will not change the parameter that is automated. That show it's actually the automation parameter that is recorded and not the control number.
If i change the parameter the control is set to control to another parameter in Analog Lab, then that other parameter will be added but under the same  control name in my DAW.
So i can in example have Control 21 as a automation name for multiple parameters like cutoff and resonance, and i will not be able to see which is which. That is not good.
So that i will consider a bug.
If a control in Analog Lab is set to control cutoff, then the cutoff name should be the automation name put in my DAW, and it should write Resonance if i automate resonance with that control and so on. And why not, when that actually is what happens.
It look like it's the same for other Arturia applications.

This however does not explain why it in your case interfear with other VSTs automation.
Also it does not explain why you get 2 automations tracks. This perhaps could have to do with Analog Lab mode. Or with Cubase.
BTW:
Analoglab.....esonance is Analog Lab resonance - and that i would like to be recorded as that should be the automation parameter.
MIdiChan.....armonic.. is the standard midi CC (71) for resonance/ harmonic/ Timbre. I assume that is set be default for Analog Lab mode. In Cubase you see it as "CC71 (Harmonic)".

I think it's a good idea, if you contact Arturia support.

Arturia please have a look at the above in this post, if you are not on ot allready.
EDIT END
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 10:00:27 pm by LBH »

Deech123

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2020, 09:53:56 pm »
HI LBH,

good news.....
I wend back to software version :keylabessential_Firmware_Update_1_1_5_886.led
I still get 2 automation tracks on ANALOG LAB4, but ANL automation does NOT mess up anymore the recording of other vst automation that are done with the same real knob on the vst.

so that's one problem solved.... I hope....if it not get back.
and why I still get 2 automation tracks for same knob movement on ANL, that's something I really do not know.

and yes I knew that analoglab.... esonance was for ANL resonance ;-)

so when I automate now on other vst's that are NOT ANL, then the automation is always called : midichan......
so that's good.. just the 2 track on ANL... still strange bug I think :-)


EDIT 2 : your question : Do you also get the issue if you control Analog Lab in USER mode instead of Analog mode?, well I have same problem when I select USER 2 with midi channel 1 when recording ANL automation. so that's not a difference.

D.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 10:01:26 pm by Deech123 »

LBH

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2020, 09:59:38 pm »
Hi again Deech123,
 
I hope you find the solution.

Please note my EDIT in my previous post. I added my deleted post in that not to confuse.

But as said, then i can't confirm any bug in Analog Lab  afterall. The 2 automation tracks added i can't explain.

gphantom

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Re: analog lab 4 knob automation does mess up other automation
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2020, 03:25:09 am »
When in doubt, ask for software support.  They'll work with you  on your problem... They have (I believe) different DAW versions to help users with.

 

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