Arturia Forums
Hardware Instruments => MatrixBrute => MatrixBrute - Technical Issues => Topic started by: clos820 on December 04, 2019, 06:40:46 am
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I really hope ive over looked something, but I don't think so. My setup is such that I have all my synths getting midi clock from my Pyramid Sequencer. All this has worked perfectly before. After the update to MatrixBrute v2.0 - it simply does not respond to external midi sync. If I load a factory patch, turn on the arpeggiator, play notes, the arp plays fine, turn on the midi-sync - nothing..Tempo readout does not reflect incoming rate either. The sequencer does the same. no playback when Midi sync is on. Ive toggled through the settings in Midi control center, no joy. I have tried using the new system mode as well, no joy. I know midi data is getting to the Matrix Brute because if I playback a sequence on midi ch1, and set the synth ch1, it will playback the sequence notes it receives, but the midi clock is not respected, for the arp, nor sequencer. please tell me I am missing something obvious...have not reported a bug because I cannot believe this would be an oversight.
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I haven't noticed clock issues between Pyramid and MxB after updating firmware to v2.
For me, all MIDI runs over DIN A and the MxB sequencer starts and stops via Pyramid transport buttons. In my setup MxB runs over MIDI channel 5 and both SYNC MIDI A and START/STOP MIDI A are set to SEND. Haven't tried the Arpegiator.
Can also control the MxB sequencer via CV (Pyramid Env Out) by setting ASSIGN ENV OUT TO DIN SYNC to MxB Gate In port, albeit that is a bit off topic.
I did once run into a similar issue after upgrading firmware on Pyramid and for some odd reason the MxB Track on Pyramid got re-assigned from MIDI A to CV.
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Thank you for your reply. So this morning I tested again, MB is not the issue. I ran midi clock from TR8S direct to MB, and it works as expected. I’ll have to look closer at the Pyramid..strange thing is this all worked prior to v2 MB update...
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Ok I know what changed; MB now seems to require Start/Stop midi command in order to listen to incoming clock. This is different behavior than prior firmware. I’m not sure I want this behavior, it should be optional. I mean clock if present should be respected regardless of start/stop command. Anyone have an opinion on that? I see use cases where you may not want your arp or internal sequence to run with start/stop, but be in sync, and ready to play when you decide to start them, possibly in a later verse of your song, etc..
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Just as a sanity check, if I filter out Realtime Events between the Pyramid and MxB then I get the same results with the MxB's sequencer not starting. But don't recall how the prior version handled it.
My workflow typically uses the Pyramid as master clock which slaves other gear. This works for the most part except for certain devices (e.g. Mother-32) which doesn't recognize start/stop.
Was going to downgrade the MxB firmware and retest but don't have that code readily available.
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As a follow-on response to my prior reply, I was successful downgrading the firmware back to v1.1.0.73 but I get the same behavior as observed in v2 where the SEQ won't auto start unless it receives a clock start message.
Thank you again DrJ for providing the older firmware.
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Ok wow thanks for checking with the older firmware on your system, this behavior is for sure different for me without changing anything else but the V2 firmware. I will downgrade my unit over the weekend, and check the same. I think the start message is probably standard behavior for most sequencers, so if it didn't work that way before on my unit, that was not correct behavior, however for me it feels odd because I was used to it operating that way, and this change is an adjustment for me, but one I can live with, just need to adjust my workflow. Thanks again for checking on your system with the older firmware.
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No problem at all. Keep us posted on your efforts.
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So I was about To downgrade the MxB and ran into some questions;
The way I planned to downgrade was take my laptop(MacBook) and load the older midi control center on it; I had the older firmware and copied it to the laptop as well. But after getting it all connected the midi control center(v 1.7.0.217) reports the MxB firmware as 2.0.0.102 and says there is an update available to v 2.0.0.870
So I stopped here. I don’t want to damage my MxB so not sure if the provide I’m following is wrong or how I should go about downgrading to previous release firmware. Also is this new 2.0.0.870 a hotfix I want?? As a test I connected the MxB back to the v 1.10.0.1354 midi control center on my studio Mac and it just reports firmware 2.0.0 with no update available. Any thoughts? Btw I looked back at a video clip I had of me playing the MxB before the v2 update and can see the ARP is following external clock without having had a midi start command sent prior. Also I found that my other synths ARPs do not require midi start command to follow in sync with clock.
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So I tried downloading the v 2.0.0.870 - and it failed to download, I imagine that is an internal build that we don't have access to yet. however I was able to downgrade my MxB firmware back to previous release, and tested the ARP with/without sending start midi message, and its behavior reverted to what I expected. The ARP will play and the MxB respects the incoming midi clock WITHOUT sending the midi start message. This matches the behavior of all my other synths again.
I have some video clips showing both and will clip them and put them up later today. I really hope this gets fixed, so even though the thread is marked as solved, this is not really solved. Also the Sequencer behaves the same way. ie before v2.0 you can run the sequencer without start message and it follows external clock.
-- So Iooks like I cannot upload a video clip attachment in a post, file too large, not sure if I can link to it either if I upload it somewhere..anyone know? Thx
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Hi clos820,
My initial testing was performed solely on the Sequencer and didn't have time to test the Arpeggiator. So I backreved the MxB again to 1.1.0.73 and performed the same test. Filtered out Realtime Events messages sent from the Pyramid. With MxB's MIDI Sync turned on and Realtime Events messages blocked the Arpeggiator did not play. And as expected, it started once the Realtime Events filter was removed. This was also visually observed using MIDI Monitor app.
As for my setup all MIDI devices are connected in a hub or star configuration to a mio10 midi interface, so there's no MIDI thru, no daisy-chaining, etc. For me, this provides great control over which messages are sent and received, remapped, etc., on a per device basis.
So I assume your setup is different and the way that MIDI is configured, which may hold the key why we're experiencing different behavior?
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Hi endreala,
Here is the thing, midi clock is part of midi real-time events, so filtering will also stop clock data. The setup I have now simplified and tested with just Pyramid direct to MxB from output Midi A. With firmware 1.1.0.73 on MxB, set the pyramid midi out setting for midi A to NOT send midi start message. (Setting start/stop to OFF) - MxB midi sync set to enabled, ARP will play, and clock is present at MxB.
I can repeat this test using my Roland TR8S drum machine, as I can also turn on/off start/stop messages on midi output. MxB responds the same way to that midi source.
And so just to recap- older firmware ARP plays with just midi clock comingnin(no need for start/stop messages)- new firmware ARP requires midi Start/stop message and ignores clock until receiving start/stop message. I have a video showing the issue but don’t know where I can share it or if I can link to it here on forums.
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Hey clos820,
Yup, I see what you mean -- filtering on Realtime Events was way too course as it also suppressed clock. And I too get the same results with v1 vs v2 Arpeggiator behavior whereby v2 requires clock start unlike in v1. Thank you for the MIDI education and my apologies for taking you down a rat hole.
If you upload your video to some online drive share (e.g. Dropbox, OneDrive, etc.), then simply click on the Insert Hyperlink icon (globe with page icon) then paste the link in-between the [ url / ] and [ / url ] symbols.
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Hi endreola,
Thank you for hanging in there and testing further. I do believe this is a bug in the new firmware. Every other synth I have works like the older firmware did before the update. I went ahead and opened a support ticket with Arturia support.
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Hello guys.
I logged this.
If this is an inconvenience in your workflow, can you please raise a complaint through the support form?
https://www.arturia.com/login (https://www.arturia.com/login)
I will try to have this modified in the forthcoming hotfix.
Thank you.
Edouard
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Thank you for including a fix for this in an upcoming hotfix. This issue may not seem obvious at first, until one try to have their MxB connected with several other synths and run into having to first send a midi start message to just the MxB to use the Arpeggiator.
I made 2 videos omne showing the difference between firmwares on MxB
https://youtu.be/wyjcguxrTv4 (https://youtu.be/wyjcguxrTv4)
and the other, a comparison to other synths Arp and Sequencer operation with regards to external midi clock and midi start/stop messages.
https://youtu.be/6AZAC2ebTCE (https://youtu.be/6AZAC2ebTCE)
I hope these videos make it clear on how this could impact Live jams, or any workflows that have multiple synths clocked together, and having to send midi start message would launch other sequences to run, others synths responding differently etc..so the normal behavior should be midi sync=on=lock to midi ext clock, and allow Arp and sequencer to run with pressing play button on MxB, as well as listen for start/stop midi messages.
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This is INCREDIBLY inconvenient to have to get a sequencer start command inserted into my midi flow to get the MB to receive and react to midi clock. The old behavior was exactly as it should have been... play, there's a constant clock in my configuration, and I could immediately sync my MB with the one button press. But now as I just discovered after 2 nights of hair pulling that I need a sequencer start command to get everything rolling. I've been around since midi day one and I've never seen this kind of paradigm.
This must be fixed ASAP.
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I agree 100%, should be fixed. I opened a support ticket, I think Arturia want to here from others if this is a real show stopper. Please add a support request to fix this if you want it added to the upcoming hotfix. I believe it makes the MxB not play well at all in a normal midi environment, with other devices that behave normally, so yes needs to be fixed. the update other than this issue is fantastic though.
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The system is not allowing me to open a support ticket, it's timing out.
PLEASE ADD ME VIRTUALLY IF POSSIBLE.
thanks!~
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Hi clos820... how did you downgrade your OS ? I really like the new firmware, but this clock issue is a real show-stopper for me. I hope it's fixed soon!
I should have the old version in my downloads directory, do I need to update (downgrade) the MCC and the synth, or can I get by with just changing the synth firmware? (Not a big fan of this huge add-on software ball and chain)....
Thanks!
UPDATE (LITERALLY). I figured it out. Was simple to switch back to pre v2 without any headaches. Here's hoping they make this a priority this time!
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Having to downgrade to get around this issue is not cool, but I know what you mean..Its a show stopper. and yes the website has been slow responding, but it does eventually open. Please try to put in a support ticket when you can, I feel this will only make it on the hotfix list if enough people chime in.
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I just joined the forum. Hello.
Right now the Matrixbrute is synced to my Akai MPC Live which is running at 80 BPMs. The Matrixbrute, not so much. The MB is constantly showing 79.90 BPM.
I opened a support for this bug, and three others.
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I just joined the forum. Hello.
Right now the Matrixbrute is synced to my Akai MPC Live which is running at 80 BPMs. The Matrixbrute, not so much. The MB is constantly showing 79.90 BPM.
I opened a support for this bug, and three others.
Hi Enarke - while this phenomena is quite real, I'm not quite sure that it qualifies as a "real" bug, a lot of other equipment does the exact same thing. What's important is that the items stay synced (audibly). If they don't, it's definitely a problem. But the minor display discrepancy, especially if it remains constant, is seen amongst a lot of equipment that is in fact in sync. Your ears will guide you if the two units start to drift apart after a measure or more. In fact I have more gear that displays a discrepancy than not, even amongst gear from the same manufacturer. I just tested - my Kronos (master clock) stable at 115 bpm is shown at 114.9 on the MB and they stay clocked/synced. The MB actually fluctuates between 114.9 and 115.0 yet no audible artifacts. I've observed this for years with different gear, I have used midi clock and MTC for decades, being about 20 years old when MIDI made it's debut and have been in the game consistently ever since.
That's why the fact that v2 of the MB firmware doesn't adhere to behavior I've used and "counted on" for decades is such a buzz kill. I'd love to hear from both proponents (if there are any) and detractors of the revised behavior.
What makes the v2 clock scheme even worse is that you can't turn on Midi Sync, and then use the MB's own Start sequencer button to get external clock to advance the sequencer. You have to use a different hardware/software altogether to initiate the process whereby the MB listens to incoming clock. Is it just me, or is this as bad of an idea that I think it is? Sorry, just shaking my head that this got by both the programming and beta testers. And no disrepect, I appreciate the beta team, maybe I'm just too set in my ways. But as it stands, I have to use the pre v2 firmware, while the new features in v2 exceeded my expectations by a mile. Here's hoping they'll switch it back, or at least have an option to choose the behavior you desire.
Thank you for listening.
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edit: My question was dumb.
Could you maybe provide me with your exact use case,Clos820 and Yeskeys?
Like,when exactly you run into what bugs you? Cause I would like to understand...
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I did read YesKeys' other post(s), but I still don't really get it. You want the sequncer to be running immediately whenever you enter SeqMode?
What happens, when you press a key then? Just transposition? And isn't starting the sequencer what the Start button is for? How do you ensure synchronicity,when you don't use a defined start command (button, key, MidiStart) to time the Sequencers start?
I cannot even find, what changed from V1 to V2.
Well, I am honestly intrigued, but at least,keep in mind the Edoardo said,he logged your troubles and tries to implement a change. Still, I would like to understand this better.
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Hey Lunatic...! I'll be happy to explain further and in a more cognizant post once I get a little free time. Might help to relate it to your own equipment - what are you using if I may ask? How are you using sync? Don't worry, don't need a white paper on it...
thanks!
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Hi Lunatic,
in V2 firmware, With MIDI SYNC button turned on, the MxB Arpeggiator and Sequencer now REQUIRE an external midi "start" command sent via midi in order to work. You cannot hit play on the sequencer, you cannot just hold down a key and have either the sequencer or the Arp play, nor do you have any clock tempo working until this command is received.
This is in contrast to every other synth I have encountered, and also changed from the previous firmware, it is a problem.
How it manifests itself in a a bad way:
Lets say you have a drum machine, and 4 synths all synced with midi clock master from the drum machine. Your drum machine sends midi clock to all devices, but you have it setup to NOT send midi start/stop messages because you want to be able to bring in ARPs and Sequences from all your synths manually at various parts of your song arrangement...this is a live jam..
Now you have programmed a nice drum pattern, you have created a bass line on one synth,(lets call that synth #2) in its internal sequencer. You have a verse or chorus part of your song arrangement as an ARP or sequence in your Matrix Brute(synth#3), and you are playing leads on another synth,lets call that synth #1, and maybe you have another sequence ready to cue on that same lead synth during the bridge Finally your #4 synth maybe has an alternate percussion part you bring in at a certain part of your jam or at the end of the song, its also programmed on its on-board sequencer.
Sounds like a nice jam ready to happen right? OK so you get going, you start your song with an intro drum pattern, you start playing your lead melody intro, then after 2 bars you press play on the bass line sequencer -synth#2, so far so good...your song is going well, the audience is loving your keyboard magic...you get thru a few more verses, then you get to a part in your song arrangement where you want to bring in the Matrix Brute ARP... you notice nervously that the tempo display is blank, the tap button is flashing, so you think its ok...you build your song up to the moment the ARP is to hit, and you press the keys to play your ARP....and NOTHING! no sound from the MatrixBrute... you go into troubleshooting mode, and while still playing your song, now out of order, you menu dive in your drum machine and enable the 'SEND" midi START command...because you remember reading somewhere in the MxB forums that it now needs a midi start command to run ARPs... in your mind you know this isn't good, but you don't register the disaster about to unfold....next few verses.. get to the chorus, you hit play on your drum machine expecting to switch hands over to playing a great ARP on your MatrixBrute..and while you now can play that great ARP, its drowned out by the 3 other synths now triggered buy the start command you sent and they are playing sequences all over a part of your song that aren't suppose to be there...the sequences are loud, because you didn't expect them to playout then...your song now sounds wack, you suck...next you turn off midi sync button on your MxB and frantically stop the other synths sequences...again you try to bring in that magical MxB ARP...alas it plays...but what? its drifting...its out of sync/tempo with your beats..oh no...people are walking out of the venue....and your record contract is torn up. ok lol maybe this was my nightmare after loading V2 firmware..but yeah this isn't good and exacty what could happen lol...point is- it used to work just fine and you never had to send a midi start message for the MxB to follow external clock, to play ARPS, and you should be able to hit play on your sequence at any time, with or without external midi start message. If you are still confused...watch my two youtube videos showing the problem.. links are in previous messages in this thread.
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Hmm, so when I have my DAW (CuBase Pro 10) running, and then turn my Seq mode on the MxB on, it will start with a key press or the Start button as expected and in sync. I don't think, that there are any MIDI Start messages being sent, as the DAW is already running. And in my CuBase settings, "Always send MIDI start message" is set to off.
So I think I cannot reproduce your problem. Right now I am on USB MIDI. Will check MIDI via DIN5 later,as well.
I will try it in the course of the next few hours with my MPC Live as Master and report back.
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Oh, and btw, I watched your videos now and they do explain it all perfectly, I just usually go on this forum on my metro commute, so I hadnt watched them before.
I wonder, if you were to send a Start MIDI msg once and then turned off all your arps and sequencers manually and brought them back in,would the Brute then work like you want it to? It is not really an option for a costant workaround, it's more, that I feel, we might be missing something here...
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Ok, I have now checked with my MPC and if I turn the MxB off, and then turn it back on, while the MIDI clock keeps running, it will behave like it was not receiving any clock.
I find interesting, however, that everything works fine even if Seq and MIDI Sync have both been turned off and back on again, so that means, the MxB is "remembering", that it did receiving a start command before, even it it is not syncing in the meantime... So I think this behaviour is not intended and rather an oversight on the programmers side.
When Midi Sync is off, when the first start msg gets sent, it will also not start running.
As a shitty workaround, I wanna point out that at least the seq stays in sync,when changing presets now, right? So you could start with an empty seq and change it on the fly. Janky though, I know. And it doesn't solve Clos820's problem either...
Well, thanks for explaining, guys, I wish I would have been able to help more.
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When Midi Sync is off, when the first start msg gets sent, it will also not start running.
Isn't that the way it is suppose to function? Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this but isn't midi clock ignored altogether when Midi Sync is off?
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Yes, sure, what I meant is, when MIDI Sync is turned off while you start the master clock, if you then turn MIDI Sync back on (while the Master is still running), it will not recognize the Clock and not start playing. Not with a key press and not with a press of the start button of the MxBs Seq.
edit: Clarifying my clarification. This is complicated :)
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Yea, you hit the nail on the head, that's the issue. And while master clock is running with Midi Sync on the MxB SEQ wont start until it hears a clock start message.
Edouard shared earlier in this thread if this is an issue and we wanted it reverted back to the way it functioned in v1 then be sure to open a support ticket, in which I believe clos820 had previously done.
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Great description of the situation Clos820. I submitted a ticket as well, basically asking to set the Midi Sync to work the way it used to before the v2. Hopefully we'll get some movement on this. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this as an untenable situation.
Lunatic, Clos820 has eloquently stated the issue. I hope I can help if you have any more questions.
Thanks!
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I got an email back from Edouard, that this bug is referenced, and that the Dev team will do its best to fix it in the forthcoming update. So hopefully soon this issue will be resolved. Arturia have done some great work with this v2 update, and looks like they have a good momentum now with taking care of these little issues on the MxB. Thank you Arturia Dev team!
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I really need this feature and regretfully updated to 2.0. Is the previous available to download anywhere so I can revert?
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I really need this feature and regretfully updated to 2.0. Is the previous available to download anywhere so I can revert?
Hopefully the hotfix will address this. Until then, here's the previous version 1.1.073: MatrixBrute_Firmware_Update_1_1_0_73.mbf (http://downloads.arturia.net/products/matrixbrute/firmware/MatrixBrute_Firmware_Update_1_1_0_73.mbf).
Remember to back up any presets you made using 2.0 before downgrading, and don't try to use any of them or other 2.0 patches on 1.1.0.73.
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Thank you so much for the file and thanks to the OP and others in this thread for their good detective work. Saved me from going mad trying to figure out what I'd done wrong!
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Was this bug fixed in the most recent update?
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Was this bug fixed in the most recent update?
Yes.
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No this isn’t fixed. Same behavior with the ARP and Sequencer requiring midi-start command to play. This is not correct. It doesn’t match behavior of any other synth I’ve ever encountered, nor does it work the way the MatrixBrute used to work prior to v2.0... very frustrating.
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Yes you're right - it requires one Start message for the session. After that it will play synced. You can then change patches, edit the sequencer etc. and it still syncs. In my setup I "accidentally" receive a Start message anyway, and it gets going after that, as in it's almost hard not too in a general master/slave setup (I'd have to pull cables during Start/Stop messages to make that happen). So a single Start message is the workaround, but it's not ideal of course.
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No this isn’t fixed. Same behavior with the ARP and Sequencer requiring midi-start command to play. This is not correct. It doesn’t match behavior of any other synth I’ve ever encountered, nor does it work the way the MatrixBrute used to work prior to v2.0... very frustrating.
I wish they would fix this back to the way it was, love the MBX and the updates are great. This is the only synth I have that you can’t just put in slave mode and be done with it or master mode for that matter
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It should be so easy to fix...
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I had to switch my workflow to accommodate the way it functions in v2.0.1. Would like to see a MCC option that toggles between requiring SSC vs old way.
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It should be so easy to fix...
I know I don’t get it? All that that time for these great updates and it just doesn’t play well with others
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I had to switch my workflow to accommodate the way it functions in v2.0.1. Would like to see a MCC option that toggles between requiring SSC vs old way.
Yep, same here? I don’t use daw’s just hardware. Please Edwardo! Just add a slave, master clock option
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Unfortunately still no traction or word from Arturia as to whether they will fix this as they promised. Its sad. I use my Brute less now, because i need to do work-arounds to get the midi sync to behave with my other hardware synths. So Its less inspiring, than it used to be..I don't think they realize how "sucky" this is. The support ticket was closed long ago with no resolution...so if anyone else cares about this issue please open support tickets...maybe if they get enough of them they will give it some consideration. As of now its seems hopeless.
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Will place another support ticket ???
Would love to keep the Matrixbrute as my alpha synth but can’t do it because of this midi sync issue :'(
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This is solved!!!! in V 2.0.2 Firmware. Thank you Arturia, it took much too long BUT you came back and fixed it and that means a lot to us all. Only advise, for Arturia on these issues, be transparent, communicate more, and the wait will not feel like an eternity.