Arturia Forums
Software Instruments => Pigments => Pigments - Feature Requests => Topic started by: Igro on October 10, 2019, 09:06:26 pm
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Hi Arturia team.
Is it possible to add routing to the envelopes, so that we could feed Oscillators to different Amp envelopes. It is really useful when doing snare kicks. In this case a Sine wave would be processed separately from the Noise oscillator. Otherwice the sine wave is havind the same length as the noise...
Thank you.
P.S: Also, I hope with new version the Amp envelope attack issue would be fixed too. Now it is clicky even at the higher attack setings, especially with the Matrix filter (but I guess other filters might be affected too).
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You can certainly use the Envelopes and Functions to modulate an Oscillator level. It that what you're trying to do?
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Sure You can. But I'm speaking about different thing.
Each oscillator is routed to the VCO Amp envelope (the first one). And you cannot prevent it. With this fixed setup, you cannot process the amp envelope independently for OSC1 and 2.
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Try this to get what you described for a snare, using, for example, Engine 1 set to "Analog" Type:
- Use Env 2 to modulate Volume control of OSC 1 set to Sine (or OSC 2 with "Key" turned off if you wish)
- Use Env 3 to modulate Volume control of NOISE
Now you have independent envelope control of the Sine and Noise components of your snare.
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Hi Stephenm,
Are you aware that both Oscillators volumes go to VCO1 first anyway? So VCO1 will affect both oscillators volume envelopes anyway, it just cannot be otherwise.
The synth structure:
Occ1/2 ----- > VCO1-----> ...
Have you actually tried what you suggested. Could you share a preset? Thank you.
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In each Engine, all 3 OSC and NOISE have separate Volume controls. Modulate those controls with separate Envelopes. Yes, I've done it and it works.
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Try this for a starting point.
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Thanks.
But Pigments cannot import (or export) presets correctly, so your preset was not loaded properly (despite the fact that Pigments says it was loaded). It is a bug of the synth (try to load your own preset).
Seems like you don't understand me. I know that you can assign Env2 and 3 to those Volumes (just like any modulation assignemnt). But this would be a secondary assignment, since they are firstly routed to Env VCO by default and this cannot be avoided. Oclillator Volumes are always affected by the Env VCO first. So you cannot process Oclillator volumes independly BEFORE the Env VCO. Only after it. So it is not that suitable for creating snare kicks, becuase you won't be able to adjust the AMP envelopes of the Sine and Noise separately, without bypassing the ENV VCO. Hope it is clear now.
The truly independent Env assignment can be found in Synthmaster One (check the picture)
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Hi Igro,
I see what you mean about importing presets - it fails here too. This bug in Pigments certainly makes these conversations more difficult - ugh.
Yeah, I'm sure I'm not completely understanding what you're saying.
In my patch - I started with Template "Default" - I removed the effect of Env VCA by leaving its sustain at max, so the only things affecting audio levels are Env2 controlling OSC2 and Env3 controlling NOISE, as shown in the attached images. Mixing is done my varying the amount of modulation, in my version 1.00 for the sine versus 0.78 for noise.
It looks like in your third picture - I'm assuming that's Synthmaster One - that the OSCs go through separate Filters and then separate Amps. Are you wanting separate envelopes for those two Amps?
I hope this helps.
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Hi Stephem. You were right, it was possible. On KVR one of the users showed me how to do this and it worked. Thank you both and sorry for my stupidity.
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Thanks Igro, I'm glad you got it working.
-Stephen
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It is working, but one Envelope is wasted that way. Secondly, I noticed that for some unknown reasons, the attack behaviour is not the same as it was when the sound goes through the VCO envelope. So I still hope there will be a chance to 'unwire' the VCO Envelope (the same way as any other envelope can be unwired through the modulation source view).
Please Arturia.
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In my opinion, VCA Env should have the same status as ENV 2 and 3, that is not be hard-wired to VCA. It would then be easier to control each volume oscillators independently without having to lose one envelope.
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In my opinion, VCA Env should have the same status as ENV 2 and 3, that is not be hard-wired to VCA. It would then be easier to control each volume oscillators independently without having to lose one envelope.
I agree.
The method of using the second Envelope while muting the first one has a big drawback. The second Envelope (when the first is acting as an intermediary), will sound nothing like if the first envelope was used. Try to load two instances of Pigments and set them to default INIT preset (Template > Default). In the first Pigment use the VCO Env and in the second Pigment use the second Envelope. It won't be possible to recreate the same Init sine patch. They will sound very differently.
(I discovered this while redoing the snare with the method that was provided (to use the second envelope), and was never able to achieve the same results as if the first VCO envelope was used).
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In my opinion, VCA Env should have the same status as ENV 2 and 3, that is not be hard-wired to VCA. It would then be easier to control each volume oscillators independently without having to lose one envelope.
I agree.
The method of using the second Envelope while muting the first one has a big drawback. The second Envelope (when the first is acting as an intermediary), will sound nothing like if the first envelope was used. Try to load two instances of Pigments and set them to default INIT preset (Template > Default). In the first Pigment use the VCO Env and in the second Pigment use the second Envelope. It won't be possible to recreate the same Init sine patch. They will sound very differently.
(I discovered this while redoing the snare with the method that was provided (to use the second envelope), and was never able to achieve the same results as if the first VCO envelope was used).
Hey all,
The reason that it sounds different is because the volume knobs have exponential mapping on them. To have a similar result to the VCA envelope when modulating volumes, you must set the decay curve to something linear (otherwise you get twice the exponential shape).
Best,
Victor
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In my opinion, VCA Env should have the same status as ENV 2 and 3, that is not be hard-wired to VCA. It would then be easier to control each volume oscillators independently without having to lose one envelope.
I agree.
The method of using the second Envelope while muting the first one has a big drawback. The second Envelope (when the first is acting as an intermediary), will sound nothing like if the first envelope was used. Try to load two instances of Pigments and set them to default INIT preset (Template > Default). In the first Pigment use the VCO Env and in the second Pigment use the second Envelope. It won't be possible to recreate the same Init sine patch. They will sound very differently.
(I discovered this while redoing the snare with the method that was provided (to use the second envelope), and was never able to achieve the same results as if the first VCO envelope was used).
Hey all,
The reason that it sounds different is because the volume knobs have exponential mapping on them. To have a similar result to the VCA envelope when modulating volumes, you must set the decay curve to something linear (otherwise you get twice the exponential shape).
Best,
Victor
Thank you for the tip Victor.
Nevertheless I think hardwired routing for the VCA Env is not the optimal solution. Having the same routing capabilities as the two other envelopes would makes things much easier, especially when it comes to control each oscillator independently (and they are so flexible and powerful they deserve such a treatment ;) ).
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Thanks, I've been experimenting with this. It is hard to much the sounds. One thing that is not possible to replicate at all is the attack 'click'. In the second Envelop it doesn't give the click at all. So yeah, the free envelope routing would be a nice addition.
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Keep in mind that Pigments only have one output VCA. Everything is affected by that and by any modulator that modulate that output, even if the Env VCA is set to have full sustain and release only.
I don't think being able to freely use another modulator like another Env instead to control the VCA, will make any difference in what this thread is about, because Pigments still only will have one output VCA.
This feature request only make sense to me, if it's about wanting a second VCA and to be able to separate and route different signals to two VCAs, to get two indpendent synthlines like you have in CS-80 V and Modular V.
And then perhaps have one more Env.
Having two independent signal lines routed to two VCAs is the only way to in all cases have complete full control over two parts of a sound.
Such a change require a lot more than just a small Env adjustment in Pigments. Beside a extra VCA it also require a way to separate and route two signals to the 2 VCAs.
What's possible now is to use two instances of pigments, if it's in some cases should be needed. This could in example be set up in a Analog Lab Multi. But can also be set up in a DAW and in other ways.
It's off coarse also possible to use all the excisting modulation possibilities, with the limitation a single VCA in some cases can give, where you actually need to have two independent sounds that each in example use a Env for a VCF and a Env for a VCA.
Stephenm have asked about, if this is about wanting another VCA. I think yes it is. But this is just my thoughts and what i think.
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In my opinion, VCA Env should have the same status as ENV 2 and 3, that is not be hard-wired to VCA. It would then be easier to control each volume oscillators independently without having to lose one envelope.
I agree.
The method of using the second Envelope while muting the first one has a big drawback. The second Envelope (when the first is acting as an intermediary), will sound nothing like if the first envelope was used. Try to load two instances of Pigments and set them to default INIT preset (Template > Default). In the first Pigment use the VCO Env and in the second Pigment use the second Envelope. It won't be possible to recreate the same Init sine patch. They will sound very differently.
(I discovered this while redoing the snare with the method that was provided (to use the second envelope), and was never able to achieve the same results as if the first VCO envelope was used).
Hey all,
The reason that it sounds different is because the volume knobs have exponential mapping on them. To have a similar result to the VCA envelope when modulating volumes, you must set the decay curve to something linear (otherwise you get twice the exponential shape).
Best,
Victor
Thank you for you suggestion. I must say that with the sample engine implementation I can create percussions even without touching the main envelopes. It is because the granular engine has an AD envelope bult-in. Great stuff!