Arturia Forums
Hardware Instruments => MatrixBrute => MatrixBrute - Tips & Tricks => Topic started by: turbo_kev on March 30, 2019, 09:12:44 pm
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check out this video if you wanna know how its done
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJATQNSkK6U&lc=z22pthqpczeecjeqg04t1aokgzu4mabzwuikzbby0q0mrk0h00410.1553973643497523&feature=em-comments
Thanks to yusynthman for the video
cheers
Kev
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Thanks for sharing. I'm going to ignore the negative sign before your karma and add one more.
Cheers!
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And another video check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6vQ-5lnZDs
cheers
kev
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Nice finds Kev. The ratcheting effect in the first video sound amazing but looks like a science project to configure. The second video seems simpler but IMO I wouldn't call that ratcheting, more like stuttering :)
I know, I know -- it's hard to please some people ;)
Cheers
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...not quite, and I'm sure yusynthman knows himself the first video he posted (especially the first) isn't anywhere near a ratchet (i.e not a single-step repeat)...
For example: the rhythm for Ravel's Bolero, if implementing a true ratchet, only requires 12 steps. The method outlined above requires not 12, but 36 i.e a single step for lowest beat value (in this instance, semiquaver triplets).
PS implying/suggesting on other threads that someone may be lying really isn't going to win any brownie points/gain new friends, nor is it a good way of coercing information from someone (with subsequent feedback to other posters on the forum after making said small inquiries/garnering a response).
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KrisL, refusing to share information and knowledge, including MatrixBrute "ratcheting" techniques and bug reports, isn't going to win any brownie points either ;)
The synth community is small and dependent on everyone helping as best we as they can, whether it's asking questions or providing answers.
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The relative size of a community does not somehow qualify the free distribution of any part of a system associated with that community.
By way of analogy:
When Aphex Twin releases a track, he is under absolutely no obligation to share with the general public his means of creating the track. He shares his music - which people can then, if they choose to, reverse-engineer to the best of their ability. In doing so, they will likely learn more than a simple reveal of how something was done in the first place (which more often than not removes the mystique, with the end-user simply moving on to the next 'unsolved puzzle').
Throwing a strop when Aphex Twin doesn't reply to how he formed his track speaks more of the individual than it does of Aphex Twin - who owes the individual nothing (irrespective of whether or not said individual chooses to interpret this with a bad taste in the mouth).
My sharing with the synth community a video illustrating ratcheting is possible on the MB has - as can already be seen - produced new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought with certain individuals (i.e yusynthmans videos. Which, whilst not ratcheting - are certainly interesting. And it is great to see someone has tried to discover a solution through creativity/work, as opposed to looking for an answer. A distinction should be made between a solution and an answer).
Simply giving the answer is not conducive to creativity.
Now, if the entire synth community wishes to hold a grudge for this, so be it. We are all free to do as we wish.
However, what has been shared is:
1) Ratcheting is possible with the MB
2) Try to find a solution. In doing so, you may inadvertently discover something useful/original that can be implemented in your music.
I'm sure individuals taking the time to share videos when they could quite happily be pursuing something else is appreciated by the synth community - given, as you say, how small it is.
And if we are tallying, shall we do a count of how much musical content has been shared?
After purchasing the instruments, we owe nothing to any community. Doing so is a choice.
If a pianist discovers a very useful fingering for, say, a more efficient means of executing a Chopin etude, he is under no obligation to share this fingering with the 'piano community' - nor is his not doing so somehow an attack on the piano community. He could, however, share a performance (if he chose to).
Finding a new method/weakness/vulnerability in a system does not automatically qualify the information for distribution.
Consider Rain Forest Puppy.
Trying to find a solution generally yields more interesting results than simply being given a solution. I believe the effort of trying to find a solution will be more useful to any individual than the solution per se (users will become very knowledgeable RE the MB by trying to find a solution. Not so if given one). Ultimately, if 'ratcheting' is the desired outcome, purchasing equipment with ratchet feature is a solution.
Now, if my position leads to a community taking a moral issue against this stance, I cannot stop this.
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That's right, nobody is under the obligation to share anything. However, sharing information and knowledge is the one thing that has brought the world to where it is. New information and knowledge leads to new creativity. Without it we get stagnation. If we all had stuck to tribal isolation and secrecy forever, we'd still be in the stone ages.
Regarding your analogies, we're not talking about cryptographic (mentioned in your posting before your edit) or musical trade secrets. We're talking about understanding and bettering the tools we use to make music. A small community trying to make the best of it together.
The community here has indeed explored avenues to ratcheting (here (https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=93706.0) and here (https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=90336.msg139171)). BTW, ratcheting is the most requested feature for the sequencer AFAIK, and I, for one, hold a hope that we'll see it in upcoming firmware.
I know you've said (for other readers here's some context, a conversation that started on GS: link (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1057788-arturia-matrixbrute-97.html#post13804768)) that you consider the MatrixBrute to be an investment, that you demand the manufacturer protects your investment and that you refuse to "work for free" by submitting bug reports. However, consider that submitting your already worked out bug list would protect your investment and it would not entail any further "free work".
Otherwise, if you're still adamant that nobody should "work for free" to report bugs, I take it that you'll either refrain from installing any future firmware that is a result of others "working for free" or that you'll be paying those "workers" for their efforts before taking advantage of their work.
That last bit is not about ratcheting, but the will to share for the benefit of the community and even oneself.
An no, we don't need a tallying of how much musical content has been shared. That's something entirely different, and at least as much for self promotion (which is fine) as for "altruistic" sharing.
Your list of "53 bugs, and three (quite major) faults" would be appreciated by the community, I'm sure. Or perhaps we could open a Kickstarter campaign to buy out your bug list :D
Edit to add comment:
If a pianist discovers a very useful fingering for, say, a more efficient means of executing a Chopin etude, he is under no obligation to share this fingering with the 'piano community' - nor is his not doing so somehow an attack on the piano community. He could, however, share a performance (if he chose to).
Most pianists wouldn't seek out a piano forum and say "Iv'e got a new and better fingering, but I ain't telling!". I also don't think Aphex Twin would do anything of the sort; "I have some great techniques for making cool tracks, but I'm not telling!". Incidentally I found several videos on YouTube where people teach alternate fingerings of Chopin Etudes...
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KrisL there is actually no point you being here if you're not prepared to share your knowledge, because that's the sole purpose of this community. Sanctimonious posts claiming you are encouraging others to develop 'new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought' don't really interest anyone. In a support community like this, you're either an asset to the community because you're willing to share your knowledge, or your posts are pointless. There are other websites available if all you're interested in doing is gloating about the size of your c*ck. Sorry.
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Clearly my point is being missed and the issue is being taken personally. Not to mention insults/judgements in other posts.
I take it that you'll either refrain from installing any future firmware that is a result of others "working for free" or that you'll be paying those "workers" for their efforts before taking advantage of their work.
If fixes are required in order for an instrument to be as-advertised, yes, a company (any company) should move from a position of non-compliance to one of compliance. It is in the interest of their reputation to do so. And - as said elsewhere - legally there is a precedent for this.
If a company developed updates above & beyond the advertised spec, and if said updates interested me: yes, I'd be more than happy to purchase them. Investment should have its reward.
Updates to deliver functionality as of spec = responsibility of the company.
Updates to deliver beyond advertised spec = company can charge as they wish for purchase.
Despite the rudeness/personal attack, I'll play along:
If, in 18 months (2nd Oct 2020), there is no forward progress with ratcheting, I'll give a hint.
To conclude: Yusynthman's videos do not demonstrate a ratchet. As I already objectively explained RE the Ravel analogy. That isn't to say the videos lack value, but rather, they do not demonstrate a ratchet.
This is an observation, not a criticism, and should be read as such.
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Clearly my point is being missed and the issue is being taken personally. Not to mention insults/judgements in other posts.
I understand your points perfectly well, but I disagree strongly with them and the accompanying attitude. I think it could be said to be insulting/judgemental to insinuate that people aren't creative enough because they've not discovered whatever it is you've done, or if they simply wonder about how to do it. Same for seeking out a support community to say that you have something useful or neat worked out, be it hints & tips or bug reports, and then you refuse to share it - at that point it becomes a case of put up or shut up.
To back up one step:
My sharing with the synth community a video illustrating ratcheting is possible on the MB has - as can already be seen - produced new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought with certain individuals (i.e yusynthmans videos. Which, whilst not ratcheting - are certainly interesting. And it is great to see someone has tried to discover a solution through creativity/work, as opposed to looking for an answer. A distinction should be made between a solution and an answer).
You're not the inspiration for Yves' "ratcheting" videos. That, as well as general talk about it, started in 2016, and the new videos he posted was a response to people asking about it, and he wanted to help and share. The credit for Yves' unselfish work (of which there is a lot) is his alone.
If, in 18 months (2nd Oct 2020), there is no forward progress with ratcheting, I'll give a hint.
How gracious of you.
Perhaps you could learn and experience something new by working with the community, not come just to gloat and lecture about irrelevancies.
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I think it could be said to be insulting/judgemental to insinuate that people aren't creative enough because they've not discovered whatever it is you've done, or if they simply wonder about how to do it.
I believe words are being added here. I don't believe I wrote others weren't creative enough, but rather: the process of trying to discover something can lead to new avenues of creativity.
If quoting, please quote.
Same for seeking out a support community to say that you have something useful or neat worked out, be it hints & tips or bug reports, and then you refuse to share it - at that point it becomes a case of put up or shut up.
Again, misattribution. I posted here for two reasons:
1) To confirm the included isn't a ratchet
2) To comment on a previous topic where a suggestion of lying was made.
You're not the inspiration for Yves' "ratcheting" videos. That, as well as general talk about it, started in 2016, and the new videos he posted was a response to people asking about it, and he wanted to help and share. The credit for Yves' unselfish work (of which there is a lot) is his alone.
Yet more misinterpretation.
I don't believe I stated I was the inspiration. If I did, please provide the evidence.
Please read what I write objectively, as this has become an ad hominem.
How gracious of you.
Perhaps you could learn and experience something new by working with the community, not come just to gloat and lecture about irrelevancies.
18 months gives ample time to find solutions.
I'm happy to retract the offer.
Read what someone writes objectively, as opposed to projecting.
My statements:
1) The examples aren't ratchets
2) Letting someone find a creative solution to a problem often inspires more creativity than simply offering a solution (for statistical evidence of this, read Sternberg's Handbook of Creativity)
3) Companies should provide an as-described product. Anything above & beyond they can charge as they see fit
4) Implications were made against me on this very forum.
Your own assertions are conjecture; the above is fact.
Again, I have spoken factually and objectively. Again, we have an ad hominem.
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Since you asked for evidence, you did indeed claim to have inspired Yves to make ratcheting videos (that'll be the one point I bother to reply to by now):
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My sharing with the synth community a video illustrating ratcheting is possible on the MB has - as can already be seen - produced new avenues of creativity/stimulated creative thought with certain individuals (i.e yusynthmans videos. Which, whilst not ratcheting - are certainly interesting. And it is great to see someone has tried to discover a solution through creativity/work, as opposed to looking for an answer. A distinction should be made between a solution and an answer).
Your own assertions are conjecture; the above is fact.
Again, I have spoken factually and objectively. Again, we have an ad hominem.
That's a bit rich. I don't dispute any actual facts, but I do take issue with the explicit and implicit insinuations and what I consider to be a lack of understanding of how (support) communities work.
We'll have to agree to disagree, methinks.
Edit: Sorry about the OT, turbo_kev.
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No Probs Dr Justice
Im not as polite as you , and im from the east end of london
As my karma is so low anyway
I might as well make it a bit lower
by saying that KrisLs Head is so big its a wonder how he manages to fit it up his own arse
Karma - 6000000
cheers
kev
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I'd like to see the sin committed warranting a ridiculous personal attack.
In conclusion:
1) I visited this forum a few weeks ago to discover there were suggestions of lying made against me
2) Despite this, I remained objective and still offered to share details RE the ratchet technique
3) This was met with disdain/mockery i.e 'how gracious of you'.
4) Ill language has been used against me numerous times in this thread.
I trust the moderators will treat this thread accordingly - especially with respect language/personal comments.
Offer retracted. Good luck in finding the solution.
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Ill language has been used against me numerous times in this thread.
That's because you're behaving like a dick. Stop behaving like a dick and people will have more respect for you. Your posts have no value. You may as well join a cancer support forum telling everyone you've found the cure for all the world's cancers but you aren't prepared to share, we have to all find out for ourselves.
Offer retracted
I'm sure we'll all survive.
If one person thinks you're behaving like a dick, it's quite possibly just a personality clash between you and that person, but when a few people are basically giving you the same message, chances are there's some truth in it.
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Wow, that escalated quickly. It must be a full moon where you guys are!
It sounds like this is an argument on the philosophy of quality between to different states of perspective: classical and romantic. Synthesis is a strange craft where tech and artistry meet, technologists dont always get on with artists and Visa versa.
I think one thing we call all agree on though. This fucking update should include some God damn ratcheting. Fingers crossed.
Peace.
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Wow, that escalated quickly. It must be a full moon where you guys are!
Actually I think a people held their temper for an admirable amount of time. I don't mind being disliked so I'm very happy to be the person who finally told him it 'like it is'. We are a small community of like minded enthusiasts trying to help each other, we can do without people joining here claiming they know the solution for an issue but won't share it. I call these kind of people 'willy wavers': they think they're impressing us and we are in awe, but really they just come across as a complete asshole.
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Fair enough.
Not intending to take away from anything anyone else has to say.
As I said peace.
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Fair enough.
Not intending to take away from anything anyone else has to say.
As I said peace.
8)
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1) I visited this forum a few weeks ago to discover there were suggestions of lying made against me
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary EVIDENCE.
Until you can prove your solution by explaining the process all I can do is stick to these three assumptions.
A. Lying
B. Modifying the firmware or hardware
C. Have a technique unknown to all the other MxB users
You will say "C" obviously. But we have no evidence so we are still left with the three assumptions.
So this is NOT a suggestion that you are lying but rather that as you will not or cannot provide evidence we are left with those three assumptions.
There is a very easy way you can clear this up right?
That said, KrisL nobody should be hurling insults at you like they have in this thread.
My advice to you is to share your solution. Before somebody else does! After all ratcheting is not a new concept in the world of modular so really not sure why you would be so secretive.
A teaser then solution would have been fun. I am in lockdown music production at the moment and have been for months. When I get some time I will try recreate what I have done many times with my modular stuff on the MxB.
When I find a solution I will instinctively share it. So that people don't think I am a dick.
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That said, KrisL nobody should be hurling insults at you like they have in this thread.
See I think that's open to opinion, I respect the fact you might disagree with me. But if someone comes on a support forum (that's the important bit) claiming they know how to do something but talks down to us with an overarching condescending patronising attitude, I think we should be grown up enough to call them out for it without fear that the poor little snowflake might melt. And if that means calling a spade a spade instead of calling it a hand-operated earth-moving device, I'm up for it.
His attitude wasn't one of "guys I've learned how to do xyz...this is amazing...I'll let you have a few guesses, then I'll share", it was definitely one of "you're all simpletons except me, maybe after you've kissed my feet I'll give you a clue if you're lucky enough". I wasn't the only person who had that interpretation of his posts, but I was happy to be the person who told him to put up or shut up. We're all in this with a common goal to help each other; this isn't a place for willy-wavers.
Unless he's bullshitting us, it's only a matter of time before someone with a far better attitude, deserving of your thanks, posts the solution. This forum is a better place without his type.
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Only just catching up on this thread. And I also already explained why I initially posted on this forum.
I also offered to explain more RE the solution - and added some time for others to find this solution for themselves.
Notwithstanding the above:
Why would I - or anyone else viewing this thread/forum - want to contribute/be part of a community when certain members of the community, rather than taking a step back and considering the content herein - choose to act abusively when their demands/views aren't satisfied according to their own perception of how one should act?
I offered to help towards explaining - this was met with disdain. I also gave an initial explanation as to why it can be preferential not to simply state a solution - and backed this with mention of literature that is certainly worth looking through.
Yet what we had in response was kneejerk abuse. I absolutely want nothing to do with such a community, and have nothing to contribute to anonymous posters (the advantage of anonymity cannot be understated here) who act in such a manner.
What this thread demonstrates is a matter of perspective. It could, as has been stated, demonstrate what the other posters have read into it.
It could also demonstrate an individual who, despite attacks, offered to contribute, but was met with disdain and abuse by those who claim to be of a community.
Again - this is a community I - and I'm sure many others - have no interest in being part of.
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And to conclude RE my own contribution in this thread:
In what could have been nothing other than a lively exchange where respect of others was maintained, perhaps what is most surprising isn't the difference of opinion, but rather, that the foul language/personal insults/attacks on an individual have been tolerated by this site and have not been acted upon/removed.
I certainly wouldn't want any young family members visiting a site where they would be witness to personal attacks on individuals - and said attacks tolerated by the site. A bad taste would certainly be left in the mouth.
Given that the potential reach of this site is both existing and potential customers, this is not a good look.
By all means continue to insult/abuse. It is not my reputation under threat as a consequence of these actions.
But the reputation of this site/alleged 'community' will suffer.
For the avoidance of doubt: given the abuse - both before and after an offer of help - I retract any/all offer to help this 'community' (who certain anonymous individuals on this site choose to speak on behalf of) with their ratchet issue.
(Side-note: given we are approaching 3 years since the announcement of the instrument, half this time i.e 18 months was a very logical/reasonable response time prior to giving guidance RE the solution).
I also have no interest in posting on a forum whose moderators tolerate the personal abuse/language demonstrated herein.
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Oh come on its not THAT serious. Just admit you were a little naive in your expectations of how people would react to what you have done. And others need to realise that if they want to use offensive language and psychologically berate people there is always "gearslutz.com". Here you need to make your arguments without being offensive.
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So Kris Lennox took his video down where he claims that he can do "true ratcheting" without externally patching.
I'll take that as a victory. He was obviously patching externally. What a burke. Got what he deserved here ;D
The bit I liked the best was when he compared himself to Apex Twin HA HA HA HA KrisL you are not Aphex Twin.
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Yikes this was an unfortunate thread. I posted this in the general subforum thread but I'll post this here in case it's useful to anyone who misses that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdPJKqQtRwc&feature=emb_title
I don't know if what KrisL was using for ratcheting because I didn't see the video but my video shows how you can ratchet by 1) opening up the envelopes completely, 2) using the LFOs as Attack/Decay envelopes, and 3) using seq mod to modulate the rate.
Enjoy!