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Software Instruments => Pigments => Pigments - Technical Issues => Topic started by: illywhacker on December 17, 2018, 12:25:20 pm

Title: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on December 17, 2018, 12:25:20 pm
I'm copying and pasting my message that I wrote on the Arturia Facebook page. They asked me to post it here. I love the synth, but if this issue can't be resolved, I can't see myself buying it. I've not really noticed any of my V6 collection synths having this issue... anyway, original post below:

Am I the only one thatís noticing digital stepping or artefacts when sweeping through the filter frequency range?

Literally, load up an initial preset, hold down a note with the sawtooth wave and click and drag the filter up and down. Itís most noticeable on the ĎSurgeoní filter, but definitely noticeable on all filter types. It even does it when I draw in smooth automation lines in Bitwig Studio 2 for Filter Frequency. I can hear clear artefacts of some sort. It even does this when using the midi controls on my Keylab controller to control Filter Freq. Iíve not seen anyone else mention this.

I love the synth, it sounds great, but unless this can be fixed with an update, I canít really see myself buying it. Is anyone else experiencing this?
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: MajorFubar on December 17, 2018, 01:08:42 pm
You're the second person to start a thread about this:

https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=93822.msg153102#msg153102

...so clearly it's not just an isolated issue. But it doesn't seem to happen for all of us, me for a start. What computers are you using? Maybe some common denominator can be found which will help Arturia identify a fix.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: ben arturia on December 17, 2018, 01:16:47 pm
Hi illywhacker,

We will need more info to reproduce your issue.
Are you running Pigments on Mac or PC ?
Do you have this by mouse drag or when using automations in DAW ?
If in a DAW what is the DAW you're using ?

thanks
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on December 17, 2018, 03:21:32 pm
Thanks for your quick responses guys, I'll get the technical info over to you a little later today, super busy right now.

In both instances though, I'm running Mac OSX.

10.11 on my Macbook Pro.

10.10 on my studio computer.

Using Bitwig Studio 2 as my DAW. Though the artefacts can still be heard when using Pigments in standalone mode.

More later :)

Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: holografique on December 17, 2018, 10:51:17 pm
yea, I have not exhibited this issue either. I'm on PC, Windows 7 64-bit, (2) Apollo 16s via ASIO, both standalone and with Nuendo (DAW). The only time I've exhibited any type of glitching is if either the ASIO buffer settings are too low, I trigger too many voices (CPU load), or the Unison voice clicking issue I reported on another thread. Otherwise, it's super-clean superb audio quality.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on December 18, 2018, 12:40:25 pm
Ok so my studio computer specs are as follows, this is the computer I'm noticing the audio artefacts on the most:


OSX 10.10.4 - Yosemite

Processor - 4.3 Ghz Intel Core i7

Memory - 32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3

Graphics - NVIDEO GeForce GTX 750 1023MB



My Macbook Pro doesn't display audio artefacts quite as badly, but they are still noticeable, Macbook Pro specs:


Macbook Pro Retina 2015

OSX 10.11.6 - El Capitan

Processor - 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7

Memory - 16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3

Graphics - Intel Iris Pro 1536 MB


Audio artefacts occur when dragging the Filter Freq with mouse, they occur with smooth, straight automation lines that I have draw in Bitwig 2 which is my DAW. The artefacts also can be heard when using my Arturia Keylab to control the Filter Freq. Hope this helps.



I'm jumping into the studio shortly, so I can record a WAV of the artefacts as I twist the filter frequency knob. I'll upload for your benefit.

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on January 04, 2019, 01:26:29 pm
Sorry for the delay!

Here is a recorded audio clip that I have uploaded to my Google Drive of the 'DEFAULT' patch on Pigmients, on my studio computer running OSX 10.10. in Bitwig 2. I notice the same issues on my Macbook Pro 2015 running OSX 10.11, but they aren't quite as bad on the newer version of OSX compared to OSX 10.10 on my studio computer.

I recorded realtime mouse dragging movements. You can clearly hear some sort of digital stepping or artefacts. The same stepping can be heard when Bitwig's automation is controlling the filter cutoff. The stepping is even worse when controlling Pigments filter cutoff with my Arturia Keylab 61.

The ONLY time I can't hear any artefacts or digital stepping is when Pigments built in modulators (like the LFO) is controlling the filter frequency... Until this issue is addressed, I can't really see myself buying it, which is a shame because I really love using it other than this issue.

Studio Computer Specs that recording was made on:

OSX 10.10.4 - Yosemite

Processor - 4.3 Ghz Intel Core i7

Memory - 32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3

Graphics - NVIDEO GeForce GTX 750 1023MB



Link to audio file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xu43m3MougEYsTWyEwoJ7vOOXfxdtxxR
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: LBH on January 04, 2019, 01:42:44 pm
Sorry for the delay!

Here is a recorded audio clip that I have uploaded to my Google Drive of the 'DEFAULT' patch on Pigmients, on my studio computer running OSX 10.10. in Bitwig 2. I notice the same issues on my Macbook Pro 2015 running OSX 10.11, but they aren't quite as bad on the newer version of OSX compared to OSX 10.10 on my studio computer.

I recorded realtime mouse dragging movements. You can clearly hear some sort of digital stepping or artefacts. The same stepping can be heard when Bitwig's automation is controlling the filter cutoff. The stepping is even worse when controlling Pigments filter cutoff with my Arturia Keylab 61.

The ONLY time I can't hear any artefacts or digital stepping is when Pigments built in modulators (like the LFO) is controlling the filter frequency... Until this issue is addressed, I can't really see myself buying it, which is a shame because I really love using it other than this issue.

Studio Computer Specs that recording was made on:

OSX 10.10.4 - Yosemite

Processor - 4.3 Ghz Intel Core i7

Memory - 32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3

Graphics - NVIDEO GeForce GTX 750 1023MB



Link to audio file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xu43m3MougEYsTWyEwoJ7vOOXfxdtxxR
You did'nt respond to my suggestion to use a Macro to create a range for the Frequency. I have attached a test preset there.
https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=93822.0#msg153169
I would apply a Macro and make the Frequency range shorter, if i need to change the Frequency in real time. More about this in the above link.

EDIT:Just tested again also using a Macro. I can confirm there are more or less stepping depending on the settings, when using my keyboard controls. Some smoothing would be good. EDIT END

Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on January 04, 2019, 05:05:05 pm
Sorry for the delay!

Here is a recorded audio clip that I have uploaded to my Google Drive of the 'DEFAULT' patch on Pigmients, on my studio computer running OSX 10.10. in Bitwig 2. I notice the same issues on my Macbook Pro 2015 running OSX 10.11, but they aren't quite as bad on the newer version of OSX compared to OSX 10.10 on my studio computer.

I recorded realtime mouse dragging movements. You can clearly hear some sort of digital stepping or artefacts. The same stepping can be heard when Bitwig's automation is controlling the filter cutoff. The stepping is even worse when controlling Pigments filter cutoff with my Arturia Keylab 61.

The ONLY time I can't hear any artefacts or digital stepping is when Pigments built in modulators (like the LFO) is controlling the filter frequency... Until this issue is addressed, I can't really see myself buying it, which is a shame because I really love using it other than this issue.

Studio Computer Specs that recording was made on:

OSX 10.10.4 - Yosemite

Processor - 4.3 Ghz Intel Core i7

Memory - 32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3

Graphics - NVIDEO GeForce GTX 750 1023MB



Link to audio file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xu43m3MougEYsTWyEwoJ7vOOXfxdtxxR
You did'nt respond to my suggestion to use a Macro to create a range for the Frequency. I have attached a test preset there.
https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=93822.0#msg153169
I would apply a Macro and make the Frequency range shorter, if i need to change the Frequency in real time. More about this in the above link.

EDIT:Just tested again also using a Macro. I can confirm there are more or less stepping depending on the settings, when using my keyboard controls. Some smoothing would be good. EDIT END




Sorry, I've been away and completely forgot to test that Macro method out. Anyway, just tried it, no luck, still sounds as bad. It definitely needs some smoothing! All my other V6 collection synths sound great on my system. If Arturia can fix this, I'll buy it, but I can't see it being fixed before the reduced price runs out which will then delay me purchasing it until I can try a demo later on!

Anyone know if there will be a fix for this?

Thanks for getting back to me, LBH! :)
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: Jpro600k on January 04, 2019, 11:04:41 pm
Hi,

FILTER1
You can check of glitch noise at Both KBD and Freq.
I have attached pgtx.

Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on January 04, 2019, 11:33:59 pm
Hi,

FILTER1
You can check of glitch noise at Both KBD and Freq.
I have attached pgtx.


Hey Jpro600k,

I tried the PGTX you attached and I still get the same glitching when modulating the filter frequency with anything other than the built in modulators within Pigments.

So for example: if I use Pigments built in LFO to modulate the Filter 1 Frequency, I get no audible glitching or stepping, it sounds perfect.

I still get glitching if I use my mouse (or touchpad on my Macbook Pro), automation in Bitwig, or the midi knobs on my Keylab 61 to control the Filter Frequency.

Other than that, I don't really understand what it is that you wanted me to try? Can you explain further?

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: Jpro600k on January 04, 2019, 11:46:28 pm
I told the fact that I catched glitch noise. It is a file for that demonstration.
I confirmed that there was a problem.
It should be solved.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: MajorFubar on January 05, 2019, 04:06:45 pm
I know it doesn't help your cause, but it doesn't do that on my computer, the sweeps are very smooth, so for some reason it must vary from computer to computer.
Spec = 2011 3.4GHz iMac 27" with 10GB RAM running High Sierra.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: LBH on January 05, 2019, 06:42:36 pm
All my other V6 collection synths sound great on my system. If Arturia can fix this, I'll buy it, but I can't see it being fixed before the reduced price runs out which will then delay me purchasing it until I can try a demo later on!

Anyone know if there will be a fix for this?
Thanks for testing.

Arturias applications have variations in how smoothed the parameters are, when you control them manually with a controller. I would'nt mind, if Arturia had a look at this smoothing for all applications.
As examples: Modular V3, SEM V2, Prophet V3, CS-80 V3 and Jup-8 V3 has great smoothing, - while Mini V3, DX7 V and Matrix-12 V2 more or less is steppy like Pigments.
But if one for example use Modwheel controlled Lag generator for the Cutoff in Matrix 12 V2, then the stepping (quantizing?) can be smoothed out.
And Mini V3 has no stepping when for example using Modwheel to control Cutoff thru the Modulation Matrix.
I don't know if any of the original hardware synths had this stepping.

Only Arturia can tell, if they will make better parameter smoothing to eliminate audioble stepping when using a controller.
Perhaps it's just an oversight in some applications.
Perhaps it's a small thing to correct, so the smoothing in all applications can be as good, as the unique sound Arturias synths has.
To me the stepping, are not a cause not to have and use the applications, but it would absolutely be better, if there was no stepping at all in any applications, as it in some cases does matter.

If there is a solution or a workaround to handle the stepping in the cases where it matters, then i would like to know.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: LBH on January 05, 2019, 06:43:31 pm
I know it doesn't help your cause, but it doesn't do that on my computer, the sweeps are very smooth, so for some reason it must vary from computer to computer.
Are you using a hardware controller to control the parameter?
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on January 05, 2019, 07:07:34 pm
Quote
Arturias applications have variations in how smoothed the parameters are, when you control them manually with a controller. I would'nt mind, if Arturia had a look at this smoothing for all applications.

As examples: Modular V3, SEM V2, Prophet V3, CS-80 V3 and Jup-8 V3 has great smoothing, - while Mini V3, DX7 V and Matrix-12 V2 more or less is steppy like Pigments.

I agree LBH, I've noticed that the Sem, CS-80 and Jup all sound awesome to me, they are the ones I use the most. The Prophet and Mini also get used quite a lot. I'll try that trick with the modwheel and Lag next time I'm in the studio and see if it's a handy workaround for me too. I have noticed slight stepping on one or two of the synths in the V6, but it was on ones that I don't use as much and it wasn't too noticeable. Though for me, Pigments is the worst I've ever heard on any softsynth! So I'm hoping this is just something they need to address and a simple fix. As I love the sound of Pigments so far and will definitely purchase it once it's sounding good on my system.

Is anyone from Arturia reading this thread? I noticed Ben Arturia posted early on in the thread, but have no indication if they've seen these further replies?

:)
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: LBH on January 05, 2019, 08:00:05 pm
@illywhacker

I think there are lots of sounds where the stepping either seems to not excist, is'nt audioble, does't matter or even add to a sound though the stepping should'nt be there either. And there are sounds where the stepping is audioble when the sound is sustained. The stepping is very audioble on the default preset, like you show with your soundfile.

Arturia staff monitor this forum if and when they can. But if you you wan't to be certain, then contacting Arturia Support is the way to go. Arturia does not answer all threads in the forums.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on January 08, 2019, 09:54:43 pm
@LBH,

I emailed Arturia Support to draw their attention to this issue. I'll update when I hear back!
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on January 09, 2019, 03:36:52 pm
Response from Arturia Support, kudos on a quick reply from them!:

Quote
Hello.

You can hear these steps because your mouse and controller are sending 7 bits data.
The automations however send fine values.

So drawing lines in Bitwig will not result in a scaled effect, but the mouse will.

Feel free to get back to us if you need any further help



I'm going to test again with automation lines, today to see if that is the case. I'm certain I tested this and still experienced stepping. I'll double check this and update.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: Biome Digital on January 11, 2019, 11:58:54 am
I've just done a filter sweep in Reaper using Reaper's automation and it was smooth. Does that help at all? I did try all lowpass filter modes.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: RomusD on January 20, 2019, 01:26:16 pm
MIDI CC data only have a resolution of 7Bit 0-127.
Automation data in the DAW, if not based on a MIDI CC data parameter, are finer!

Test with SEM V in comparison to pigments. Both synths have a Saw Wafeform and an LP SEM filter with 66% resonance.

Test 1:
I have defined a tone with a MIDI CC Data Automation from 0 to 127 and back to 0.
With SEM V the filter sweep is soft.
With pigments, the artifacts are well audible.

Test 2:
I have defined a tone with a DAW automation on the filter frequency from 0 to 1 and back to 0.
With SEM V the filter sweep is soft.
With Pigments the filter sweep is now also soft.

Parameter control via the Keylab mkII only with MIDI CC data so no "analog-Feeling" on!
It would be desirable for pigments to behave the same as SEM V.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: illywhacker on January 31, 2019, 10:10:25 am
Thanks for the replies guys.

Arturia have sent it on to their testing and development team to figure out why it's glitching and adding artefacts so badly. After I sent them the test project in Bitwig 2.0, they said they could not hear artefacts on their computers. Though the test recording I did on MY computer demonstrated to them that there is an issue. So they're looking into it. Adjusting Filter Freq with all methods (mouse, Keylab controls, automation drawn in on Bitwig), all create artefacts.

I've not heard back from them since they informed me they have forwarded it onto their development team, so I assume they've not identified the issue yet. I didn't purchase Pigments in the end. I'll try the demo in a month or two to see if it's been fixed. Though it's a shame to miss out on the reduced introductory price for existing customers. So I'm not sure whether I'll proceed with purchasing Pigments yet, as I get by with Omnisphere and the V6 collection.

:)   
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: ben arturia on February 21, 2019, 04:22:04 pm
Hi all,
After further investigations it looks like it's related with the buffer size used.
With a big buffer size you might experience high stepping effect.

Could you please try with 32/64 buffer size ?

We are working on that point right now.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: LBH on February 21, 2019, 10:07:50 pm
Hi Ben.

To give you feedback. I have tried to test.

It make no difference for me to set lower buffer. Still stepping on 64 and 32 samples buffer.

(The stepping is only an issue when using a assigned controller knob or fader in a live or recording  performance)

Perhaps this indicate where to look for a solution for stepping in applications:
Arturias applications have variations in how smoothed the parameters are, when you control them manually with a controller. I would'nt mind, if Arturia had a look at this smoothing for all applications.
As examples: Modular V3, SEM V2, Prophet V3, CS-80 V3 and Jup-8 V3 has great smoothing, - while Mini V3, DX7 V and Matrix-12 V2 more or less is steppy like Pigments.
But if one for example use Modwheel controlled Lag generator for the Cutoff in Matrix 12 V2, then the stepping (quantizing?) can be smoothed out.
And Mini V3 has no stepping when for example using Modwheel to control Cutoff thru the Modulation Matrix.

Best
LBH.
Title: Re: Filter issues - audio artefacts/digital stepping/glitching
Post by: Razzia on June 15, 2019, 12:26:04 am
Chiming in to say that this is happening to me as well, but only in the VST3 version. I could probably live with avoiding the VST3, for a while, but hopefully this gets identified and fixed eventually


Windows 10
Ableton Live 10.1
i7 6700k/integrated graphics
16GB RAM
250GB SSD/2TB HDD


It only happens with the mouse. Modulators are fine. Automation lanes, fine. Ableton Push 2 and Launchkey, also fine. Interestingly, if I use a macro to control the filter cutoff it even looks steppy in the macro's visualiation window. And again, not the case with the VST2 version.

edit: how long do I have to do these capchas and quizzes every time I want to do something on here? Hopefully there's a minimum post requirement that gets rid of this. I have to google vintage synthesizers just to edit my post...