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Hardware Instruments => MatrixBrute => MatrixBrute - General discussions => Topic started by: endreola on December 04, 2018, 10:18:41 pm

Title: Ratcheting?
Post by: endreola on December 04, 2018, 10:18:41 pm
Greetings fellow MB'ers.

Had recenty seen a video by Kris Lennox demonstrating that ratchting is possible on MatrixBrute (ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9c20tw7l5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9c20tw7l5A)). 
Am stumpted as to how this was achieved and would love to understand how I can replicate it.  Any takers? :)

Nice work Kris.

Regards,
Dean

Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Vic-tor on December 05, 2018, 08:43:47 am
Hey,

I am guessing he is using a temp synced LFO (Saw) with a rate of 1/16 to modulate the volume (VCA in the Matrix), then uses the sequencer modulation (seq mod) track to modulate the speed of this LFO (up to 1/32).
Note how Step 7-8 and 14-15-16 have the top row lit up. That means there is some seq mod info active on these steps.
If needed I can explain this further when I get the time, let me know !


Victor
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: DrJustice on December 05, 2018, 01:06:33 pm
What Victor says - however, I think the example in the video does something else. Controlling the LFO speed with the MOD track requires a step set to 0% to bring the LFO speed back to its base setting after the "ratcheting" steps, which does not appear to be the case in the video. The guy with the video calls it "true ratcheting", which require actual triggering of the envelopes. Unfortunately, he has declined to share his method. I'm not at my MxB today, so I can't do any experiments... Back to you Victor :-)
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Vic-tor on December 05, 2018, 01:56:56 pm
True, it seems I answered too fast without checking in details !

I tested the method I suggested and could hear that using a LFO to modulate the VCA does not sound like this (different envelope shape)

So the method of the video could involve patching things from the Matrix CV outs and clock/gate in. Will experiment when I get the time and share results if I find a good method :)



Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: endreola on December 06, 2018, 07:00:22 am
Hey, I appreciate you both looking into this.

Based on Kri's comment that this was achieved "All internal; no outs", which sounds pretty promising.  From what I've seen thus far, most eurorack systems use clock dividers/multipliers/switches to produce this effect.  And then of course there's product that natively supports ratcheting, like the Doepfer MAQ16/3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh_9vUWPHoo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh_9vUWPHoo).  I don't own one but the workflow looks pretty easy :)

Maybe it's just me but his other comment "Arturia will likely create this as a feature in future updates.  But it can be designed without the need for a firmware update.".  So I process that as he had his unit modified to achieve that level of capability.

Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: nazznomi on December 06, 2018, 02:12:12 pm
Apply LFO 1 or 2 amount to a custom location on the matrix. apply seq mod to the LFO amount with a high mod ammount. Apply the LFO to OSC 2 Ultra in the matrix with a high mod amount and route a cable from OSC 2 Ultra out to Gate in. Setting up a sequence with varying amounts of mod will change the amount of ratchet. Changing the LFO shape will change the nature of the ratchet.
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: DrJustice on December 06, 2018, 03:19:38 pm
Welcome to the forum, nazznomi!  :)

The method discussed requires no patching, only internal preset parameters. While the patching method sort of works, it's a bit hard to manage as the ratcheting will only happen in the period of the step that is not within the sequencer gate time; e.g. with 50% gate time, the ratcheting will happen for the last half of the step. You also need to have a step at 0% MOD to stop the ratcheting. Still usable of course, for its own variety of ratcheting.

Here's hoping for real ratcheting in the FW update - AFAIK, it's the most requested sequencer feature.
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: VAU on December 07, 2018, 05:45:07 pm
and would so nicely be possible with more Matrix pages...
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: endreola on December 10, 2018, 08:05:52 am

Am curious if anyone has been successful duplicating Kris's patch?
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: nazznomi on December 10, 2018, 11:47:00 pm
I've attached a preset. It's close. I'll try again when I have more time.
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: endreola on December 12, 2018, 04:12:10 am
Hey nazznomi, your efforts is greatly appreceated.  Will load up the patch after I get back into town.

Cheers
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: endreola on January 21, 2019, 12:26:38 pm
Hey nazznomi, I finally got the opportunity to load up your patch.  Maybe it's my unit but I can barely hear the ratcheting effects.  In Kris's example the effect is very distinct so I'm assuming he's using a different approach.  Thank you for trying - a Big thumbs up for your efforts!
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Chromat1c on February 12, 2019, 04:24:46 pm
Er so how do you re-trigger the envelopes, without externally patching?
In the video it does sound like the envs are re-triggering, but could be very similar with just using two LFOs set to gate the amplitude with a SAW down, one 8ths, one 16ths. But he then says it is easy to just assign any value you like.

Arturia did you know you can re-trigger the envelopes without patching?
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Vic-tor on February 13, 2019, 08:55:40 am
Hey,

I did spent some time on it a couple of weeks ago, and was able to get ok results by sending a synced LFO to the gate input (via CV out and in) and modulating its rate using the seq mod.

Controlling the LFO speed with the MOD track requires a step set to 0% to bring the LFO speed back to its base setting after the "ratcheting" steps, which does not appear to be the case in the video.

@DrJustice, I also noticed the accent steps were lit up after the "ratcheting" steps and noticed assigning a negative velocity modulation amount to the LFO rate as well.

The end result sounded like what is heard in the video (as opposed to using the LFO to modulate the OSC volume which has a different shape and sounds less sharp) so I am beginning to think that may be the setup he was using in the video`! It was not super handy and easy to modify though.

Best,

Victor
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Lunatic Sound on February 14, 2019, 09:12:48 am
Whoooow,  the mods are reading this forum??? :o
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Chromat1c on February 18, 2019, 12:06:58 pm
So this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9c20tw7l5A
is...
A. Lying
B. Modifying the firmware or hardware
C. Has a technique unknown to all the other MxB users
?
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Vic-tor on February 19, 2019, 11:08:28 am
For now I believe he does it like I described in my previous post, by using the patch bay at the back, but through self patching (no external gear). Here is a proper step by step:

From an init patch :

1 Assign LFO 1 to (for example) VCO1 Metalizer with a max amount
2 Using the back panel, plug in VCO1 Metalizer CV OUT to the Gate Input
3 Set LFO 1 to sawtooth, Tempo synced, retrig mode OFF
4 Assign LFO 1 Rate in the matrix using the free assign buttons
5 Patch Seq Mod in LFO 1 Rate with a positive amount
6 Patch Velocity in LFO 1 Rate with a negative amount
7 Write a sequence in the sequencer
8 Using record mode, while stopped, use the big knob above the matrix to add positive seq mod values on the steps you want start to ratchet on
9 Add accents on the steps you want the ratchet to stop

NB : You will need to find the right modulations amounts on steps 5 and 6 (I don't recall the precise values, but it was kinda tricky to get it right)

In the end the whole setup felt not super super handy, so I am not completely sure that is the exact same technique he is using. However, the result was, to my ears, definitely similar.


Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Chromat1c on February 20, 2019, 09:35:53 am
Whoooow,  the mods are reading this forum??? :o

Ha ha it's not THAT controversial. Is it? I mean all I want to know is how Kris
did his true ratcheting without CV patching. Just trying to learn. ;D
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: aWc on February 20, 2019, 02:27:35 pm
For now I believe he does it like I described in my previous post, by using the patch bay at the back, but through self patching (no external gear). Here is a proper step by step:

From an init patch :

1 Assign LFO 1 to (for example) VCO1 Metalizer with a max amount
2 Using the back panel, plug in VCO1 Metalizer CV OUT to the Gate Input
3 Set LFO 1 to sawtooth, Tempo synced, retrig mode OFF
4 Assign LFO 1 Rate in the matrix using the free assign buttons
5 Patch Seq Mod in LFO 1 Rate with a positive amount
6 Patch Velocity in LFO 1 Rate with a negative amount
7 Write a sequence in the sequencer
8 Using record mode, while stopped, use the big knob above the matrix to add positive seq mod values on the steps you want start to ratchet on
9 Add accents on the steps you want the ratchet to stop

NB : You will need to find the right modulations amounts on steps 5 and 6 (I don't recall the precise values, but it was kinda tricky to get it right)

In the end the whole setup felt not super super handy, so I am not completely sure that is the exact same technique he is using. However, the result was, to my ears, definitely similar.
Well I don't know if this is "true" ratcheting or not, but it sure is fun. Needs some tweaking but easily brings some nice repetitions on some steps. I also added modulation of LFO1 speed with LFO2 in the Matrix, or even  crazier, using Env3 to modulate LFO1 speed: adjusting the attack and release properly brings some offbeat accents that are really cool!
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Chromat1c on February 21, 2019, 01:20:29 pm
I had a reply to my questions from Kris on YouTube

        "The fun is in the finding :) and I have no intention of spoiling anyone's fun."

He says he is not using any patching, that it is true ratcheting, possible with no firmware update.

Arturia did you know this is possible? Is it possible?

Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: aWc on February 21, 2019, 07:39:08 pm
Did some new tests WITHOUT using the CV patch cord to Gate In.
The trick is to modulate the VCA with LFO1 and then:
-In Seq Mod, modulate both LFO1 amount and LFO1 rate (user defined mod).
-seems to require synced LFO2 to also modulate LFO1 rate
-looks like LFO should be free running...

When I get a more reliable result I'll post an audio example, but I am quite sure that modulating VCA is the only way to get ratcheting without externally triggering the Gate.
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Vic-tor on February 22, 2019, 10:42:56 am


He says he is not using any patching

-In the description I only see "All internal; no outs." which to me means "I did it all on the Matrixbrute", but not "I did not use patch cables"
-Another thing that is noticeable is how the upper part of the machine is hidden, unlike all his other videos.

I could be wrong, of course, but I still think the workflow is the one involving using the bay to patch a modulator out and in the gate input  :)
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: turbo_kev on February 24, 2019, 01:22:52 am
Download the free patches by Yves Usson
on the arturia web site

some of the patches have the ratchet effect
perhaps some bright spark can reverse engineer the patches
and tell us how its done

cheers
Kev
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: Chromat1c on February 25, 2019, 03:07:49 pm
Download the free patches by Yves Usson
on the arturia web site

some of the patches have the ratchet effect
perhaps some bright spark can reverse engineer the patches
and tell us how its done

cheers
Kev

Hi Turbo,
Which ones are by Yves Usson. I'm on the presets link but cant find Yves Usson?
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: turbo_kev on February 25, 2019, 05:42:51 pm
https://www.arturia.com/stories/yves-usson

scroll down the page and look for the THE CREATORS NOTEBOOK

cheers
kev
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: endreola on February 25, 2019, 06:40:40 pm
Here's a quick-link to the content: http://downloads.arturia.net/products/the_creators_notebook/preset/the_creators_notebook_.zip (http://downloads.arturia.net/products/the_creators_notebook/preset/the_creators_notebook_.zip)
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: turbo_kev on April 01, 2019, 12:17:29 am
 

At last the SECRET to ratchating on the MxB is revealed
on: March 30, 2019, 09:12:44 pm

Quote
Modify
Remove
check out this video if you wanna know how its done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJATQNSkK6U&lc=z22pthqpczeecjeqg04t1aokgzu4mabzwuikzbby0q0mrk0h00410.1553973643497523&feature=em-comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6vQ-5lnZDs

Thanks to yusynthman  for the video

cheers
Kev
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: yeskeys on April 05, 2019, 06:28:14 pm
While yusynthman is AMAZING (his last download set is all I have in my brute right now, this isn't the holy grail programming trick I think a lot of us are searching for.  Ideally, we want to ratchet on a single step of the sequencer...  am I right?

cheers!  Thanks yusynthman!!
Title: Re: Ratcheting?
Post by: DrJustice on April 05, 2019, 07:05:45 pm
Yves is nothing less than the grandfather of the MatrixBrute! 8)

Yes, what we all want is proper ratcheting, with N subdivisions of a step. For each subdivision the envelopes must be triggered, just as for the undivided steps, and I suppose the gate length should scale to the subdivided steps.

I made a suggestion for the UI side implementation here (https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=92882) (also some other sequencer improvements), with separate ratchet count per step:

 - Sequencer and MxArp: Ratcheting. Hold Step button and press 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 or 1/32 for 1,2,3 and 4 repeats. When the Step button is held the division LEDs could light or flash to indicate the current setting.

As always, head over to support and submit a feature request ticket if you'd like to see this.