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Software Instruments => Mini V 3 => Mini V 3 - Users Community => Topic started by: 2cynikal on December 02, 2016, 05:49:08 pm

Title: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: 2cynikal on December 02, 2016, 05:49:08 pm
I recently came across the Minimoog Sound Charts by Tom Rhea, a great little Moog Cookbook full of useful presets.
Here is the link to the book:

After further searching I also found a video of these presets being played on an authentic Minimoog Model D:

So I sat down and started doing a few presets (one being Rick Wakeman's Catherine of Aragon, 12:18 in the video) in Mini V 3 and comparing to the Youtube video. What struck me was, despite doing exactly what it says in the book, how far off they were in dynamics to the original, like a completely different oscillator sound.

Don't get me wrong, I've always loved my Arturia Mini V but I was under the impression this was a very good emulation of the Minimoog, and this video has kind of burst that bubble for me.

Out of curiosity I took the book and made a few Native Instrument Monark patches and was surprised how much closer they were to the Minimoog sound and 'vibe', they had that warmth and grunt that was missing from Mini V.

Anyway, I'd love to hear some feedback on what other users think, or have tried with the Patchbook.
Title: Re: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: LBH on December 02, 2016, 09:56:34 pm
May i ask you if the Catherine of aragon preset i have attached is far of? and if so what is it that's missing and that Monark can do better.
Log in to download the preset.

I also have Monark. It can do many things. But do it catch the true character of a Minimoog? To me this is mostly about what sounds you can hear is a minimoog. What sounds do you find is sounds that define a unique minimoog sound?

To me it's the way the waveforms sound. For example the Trianle has a speciel sounding and soft/ smooth character. And the pulsewaves sound speciel. I have not heard the wavrforms nailed completely in any emulation yet. To be able to reverse the Saw in Mini V would be nice as the original had ramp down even if the graphic say ramp up. A reverse switch like added to ARP 2600 could make it selectable.

Sounds like the stating reed/ trumpet sound on the original Pink floyd album Wish you where here. Or sounds like for example Manfred Mann use - many on especially the Chance album. Or like the sounds Kraftwerk use on the old original albums like on Man Machine or like SBB use on the album Follow my Dream. Many old Progrock bands use speciel sounding Minimoog sounds. To me some of the sounds have a certain soft/ smooth warm character and others have a speciel sounding nasal character and some conbine that.

I find Monark way too hard and cold to make those sounds. BTW what do you call "warm" in sounds. To me it's not distortion It's something pleasant.
MINI V i find get closer to the soft/ smoothness, It even emulates the behavior of the envelope better. But true Monark has it's forces. I just don't understand the hype it's the best.
I would wish Mini V was better. I find Mini V3 lacks a little in the low end that i sometimes feels can be an error that can be corrected, and it has it's faults. Also the filter get stringy too soon  like in all other emulations. I also think Mini V could be softer and thicker and more origianl in the sound. But it's softer/ smoother than any other emulation i have heard.

I don't know how The Legend that just come out do with the sounds i'd like to be able to create in a Minimoog. The sounds that i feel define a Minimoog sound. So many other sounds can be done in many other synths. Or at least close enough. I like the emulations to do the speciel character and the unique sounds of the originals at most.

Enough. What do you think a Minimoog Character is? What is a true Minimoog sound?
There have been quite a few different models btw.
Title: Re: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: 2cynikal on December 03, 2016, 01:13:58 pm
Firstly, your preset sounded very close and I have to say well done to you, I'm not sure if the video also has the Filter Modulation on but the patch diagram doesn't and may be that's what my original patch was missing. With regards to the Monark here's a quick effort but, yes, yours does sound better, without the harshness.

I have to say Monark performed a better job on some of the Bass patches, as it seemed to have a bit more low end.

But thanks to your patch I'm beginning to eat humble pie!
Title: Re: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: LBH on December 03, 2016, 06:05:27 pm
Thanks. But i really just did the settings from the patch book. What i applied was MINI V's softclip. This is not on the original moog, but perhaps one van say it's there allways. Not sure.

Yes i have applied a possibility to use the modwheel. But if you don't use the modwheel, then there mod switches have no effect. It's like in the patch book then.

Also i set the voĉome levels higher. But only because Mini V3 output seems low. Not sure if it's only here, In my DAW the preset is a -12 db with all levels at max. May i ask how it is by you?

I have also applied some drift/ detune and the possiblity to turn on the Unison switch.
I applied some OSC detuning. Remember a analog synth drift in the tuning. Many times small detunings is not put in the patch sheet, but only semitones.
You can set a bend values too. I forgot.
Also i can suggest to try and apply some amount of noise. Try both pink noise and white noise.
And you can try to turn the chorus and delay on too.
Some of this is not to copy the sound, but just some quick modifications to change the sound some.

About Monark. Please remeber that the "Load" parameter shakk be a zero to be original. That's less bass in many cases.
And also remember Monark also have drift parameters on page B. You also have to hear if it's synced or actually detuned. A tad on the tuning parameters detune a lot.

I'm still interested in waht sounds you find define a minimoog sound?
As you could understand i pointed at certain leads. Thick soft basses are also a moog thing. But what very noisy sounds can one hear is a moog?

I see you have attached a monark preset. I download it now.
EDIT: I have Reaktor 5. I can not open the preset. This sucks. But i have tried Monark as well. And it do well, but sound more harsh than MINI V3 when i tested. With sounds like this there is'nt very much differnce except from the feel of it.
Title: Re: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: 2cynikal on December 09, 2016, 12:24:08 am
What sounds define or distinguish a minimoog sound?

I think the Trombone on the video at 8.00 and Fat Bass sound at 11.35 do it for me!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: LBH on December 09, 2016, 02:27:21 pm
I have tried to create the Trombone and the Brain Salad Surgery sounds you mention as examples.I attach them this post. Login to download.

Some further tweaking can make the presets even better i think. Tell me what you think? Are they close?
(BTW: Remember the way the filter behave in a minimoog and make some sounds characteristic, and that MINI V emulate, while monark don't. This have an impact on how to play the trombone.)

I agree about the fatness is a part of a minimoog. And there are a softness/ smoothness in the sounds i also agree is in a minimoog.
But in many ways sounds like that can be achieved in other synths - like for example a Prophet 5. If you such sounds will you be certain or almost certain it's a minimoog? I won't. I would say it could be a minimoog.

If your goal is to say Monark is closer to those sounds, when you do the same settings, then i agree. I guess you have picked those sounds for that reason. Monark still not sound as smooth as a minimoog.
Like i said, then some sounds Monark does quite well. But other synths can other synths can do sounds like that too - perhaps even better. It also depend on your taste.

However if you tweak MINI V you can also get the same sound if you tweak.
Never the less - as i have weitten in the forum allready when VC5 came out, then there is to much Emphasis too soon, and it lacks a little bass in the sound balance, and gets stringy/ buzzy too soon. The presets you give as examples show that. Arturia can check some things using those patch book sounds and video.
As said also the feedback could be better.
Unfortunately Arturias parameter settings and shown values are not allways to be trusted either.
MINI V could do even better. But it can be tweaked to have some of the real Minimoog character i search like no other emulation i have tried. I have not tried The Legend.
Title: Re: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: 2cynikal on December 10, 2016, 12:16:18 am
I think you have touched on what I was trying to say, that although Mini V3 is an emulation it is not a DIRECT emulation (more of an approximation). You can do the patch book diagram and the sound is similar but NOT always the same. As you say the bottom end seems to be a bit lacking and you're right, maybe I should be saying this to Arturia. I find it surprising that this patchbook (which has been knocking around since the mid-70s and is a one of the definitive patch guides for the Minimoog) has not been emulated or possibly tested by Arturia as it exposes a few weaknesses in their software.
You are right with a bit of tweaking you can get pretty damn close but value for value (from the charts) it is not exact.
Title: Re: Minimoog Sound charts (patch book)
Post by: LBH on December 12, 2016, 04:42:39 am
My  opinions is known in the forums, and by Arturia.
To me the main reasons to buy emulations is thie following in priority:

1. They emulate the sound completely or very close to especially the speciel charistica and unique sounds the synth have that make it diferent from other synths. If t can do this, then other sounds and posiblities in addition to this is welcome.

2. The original features and possibilities are there, and can work like the originals - (many things don't), but where improovements to have the possibility to make things easier is welcome.

3. They can get close to the above using the original parameter settings.

4. Other modern features like reset posibilities and MIDI sync for Sequencers, LFO's and timelines and whatever, - and where also Aftertouch, Velocity and Polyphony, and also Playmodes and Unison with detune and stereo spread are a possibility to use.

5. Things that make it easy to work with the synth and in a DAW, and additional features like effects that i would like to have their own factory and user presets and alike - like for example "Wavetables" for synclavier...

6- The same GUI as far as possible, but also other additions is welcome because of more features, waveforms including inverse and alike, Sync, reset and phase settings etc...

I believe emulations have the best future if they do the above.
To me it's not enough just to have the GUI, even if i think many just like to have the same GUI and say they have a Moog Modular etc.. That's fine, but a GUI in it self is not a emulation. Especially the sound is the most important. ANd many would like the emulations to do the things from old music they love and that was a part of making the synths known to say it in a few words.

I think Arturia have a good base to work from. There is a way to go, even if the synths in many ways do well allready, but they have the possibilty to do the above i believe, and if so - then i think it will benefit Arturia a lot as well. The things i write in the forums and to Arturia is meant to be constructive critic and suggetions.