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Software Instruments => Synclavier V => Synclavier V - Technical Issues => Topic started by: wintersunproject on May 21, 2016, 03:09:41 pm

Title: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: wintersunproject on May 21, 2016, 03:09:41 pm
Really love the idea of the synclavier V and its sound, but the biggest part of this machine was the way it handled samples..
If i could import a wav and make sounds from there then that would make me want to upgrade and buy it, at present it seems half a project to me, sorry to not sound too positive but it seems a bit odd not to add this to the synclavier suite.
Or maybe I'm missing something here ?
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: CC4 on May 21, 2016, 05:02:58 pm
The new Synclavier is pretty sweet.  It sounds incredible and complex evolving sounds can easily be created since they kept with the Synclavier idea of keeping the interface simple to use.  I was also hoping for the sampling capabilities though.  I'm sure that adds a whole other level of difficulty on the programming side of things, but imagine the power that would put in our hands!  Hopefully sampling capabilities are considered on their roadmap for the future of this product.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: terrablue on May 21, 2016, 05:50:27 pm
And where is the big silver dial?
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 21, 2016, 08:57:44 pm
They left the sampling out? Ouch. Got to see one played back in the 70's/80's and the sampling was a big draw for a lot of people. This was one of two new synths I am really jazzed about in VC5 (the other being the Farfisa) but to read sampling is missing? Looks like I'll be holding off on buying the VC5 upgrade for now.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Terrym on May 22, 2016, 11:28:09 am
They left the sampling out? Ouch. Got to see one played back in the 70's/80's and the sampling was a big draw for a lot of people. This was one of two new synths I am really jazzed about in VC5 (the other being the Farfisa) but to read sampling is missing? Looks like I'll be holding off on buying the VC5 upgrade for now.

This synth is based on the synclavier II  not the 9600 which had the sampling feature.

Terrym
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 22, 2016, 01:27:08 pm
They left the sampling out? Ouch. Got to see one played back in the 70's/80's and the sampling was a big draw for a lot of people. This was one of two new synths I am really jazzed about in VC5 (the other being the Farfisa) but to read sampling is missing? Looks like I'll be holding off on buying the VC5 upgrade for now.

This synth is based on the synclavier II  not the 9600 which had the sampling feature.

Terrym
I think you're wrong as shown in these two links: http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/synclav.php (http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/synclav.php) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synclavier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synclavier)
They both show the Synclavier 2 as having sampling (first as an option and later as standard). Arturia needs to do a better job on their research. I know because I've seen the original Synclavier 2 back in the day and it had sampling.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Terrym on May 22, 2016, 03:11:55 pm
Im sure the synclaveir II only had sample to disk added in 1983 or so but they changed to RAM in 1984 with the new vpk and sampling tower 3200,6400, and the 9600.


regards


Terrym

Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: CC4 on May 22, 2016, 05:06:29 pm
They left the sampling out? Ouch. Got to see one played back in the 70's/80's and the sampling was a big draw for a lot of people. This was one of two new synths I am really jazzed about in VC5 (the other being the Farfisa) but to read sampling is missing? Looks like I'll be holding off on buying the VC5 upgrade for now.

Take the Synclavier for a test drive.  I'm not sure of the demo limitations, but I think it sounds pretty damn amazing.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 22, 2016, 10:39:58 pm
Im sure the synclaveir II only had sample to disk added in 1983 or so but they changed to RAM in 1984 with the new vpk and sampling tower 3200,6400, and the 9600.


regards


Terrym
No matter the sample method the Synclavier 2 DID have sampling and for Arturia to leave that out is not right. At least give us the ability to fly in our own samples.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 22, 2016, 10:41:58 pm
They left the sampling out? Ouch. Got to see one played back in the 70's/80's and the sampling was a big draw for a lot of people. This was one of two new synths I am really jazzed about in VC5 (the other being the Farfisa) but to read sampling is missing? Looks like I'll be holding off on buying the VC5 upgrade for now.

Take the Synclavier for a test drive.  I'm not sure of the demo limitations, but I think it sounds pretty damn amazing.
I've been playing with Synclavier 2 from inside the upgraded Analog Laboratory 2 and it is amazing. A lot like what I remember the sound was and more. But there are other issues with V Collection 5 that I can't stomach and to debate that here would take the thread too far off topic. PM or email me and we'll talk.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Baptiste Arturia on May 23, 2016, 10:22:45 am
Hi,

The Synclavier V does not allow to import your own samples in the time slice engine, you are right.
We've considered the option of integrating this feature in the software.
But we've chosen to focus on the FM and Additive engines which already offer a crazy wide range of sound design possibilities, especially combined with the time slice feature.

This said, if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.
At least give it a try now if you are interested by this synth, you might be surprised.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 23, 2016, 12:38:15 pm
Hi,

The Synclavier V does not allow to import your own samples in the time slice engine, you are right.
We've considered the option of integrating this feature in the software.
But we've chosen to focus on the FM and Additive engines which already offer a crazy wide range of sound design possibilities, especially combined with the time slice feature.

This said, if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.
At least give it a try now if you are interested by this synth, you might be surprised.
Thanks for the explanation but the sampling/resynthesis is as much of a part of the soul of the Synclavier 2 as the additive and FM synthesis. It's what helped them compete against the Fairlight CMI and other systems out there. To see that it's not included is sad. There was only one other synth (the Farfisa) in V Collection 5 upgrade that would make me part with my cash for the upgrade. Now I have to think long and hard about purchasing this as it now stands.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: wintersunproject on May 23, 2016, 01:01:59 pm
I think its a missed trick, theres a massive gap in the market for a vintage sampler workstation i think ?
If its going to happen as a version 2 then count me in.
A virtual fairlight would be brilliant too or a virtual emulator II.
Any of these i would use every day, but at the moment its a case of using crappy kontakt sample lkibraries or UVI stuff, which isnt ideal.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 23, 2016, 01:41:11 pm
I think its a missed trick, theres a massive gap in the market for a vintage sampler workstation i think ?
If its going to happen as a version 2 then count me in.
A virtual fairlight would be brilliant too or a virtual emulator II.
Any of these i would use every day, but at the moment its a case of using crappy kontakt sample lkibraries or UVI stuff, which isnt ideal.
So you've encountered the UVI 'Fairlight' emulation then I gather? Not even close. I remember reading in the last year or so that there was a move on to build a new hardware version of the Fairlight CMI. Problem at the time was the D/A converters weren't up to the job spec-wise but they've gotten better since then.

I actually experienced both machines back in the day; they were marvelous then and can still kick butt today given the chance.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Koshdukai on May 23, 2016, 10:51:04 pm
if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.
Please ;)
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on May 23, 2016, 11:33:58 pm
This said, if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.

So not as a free update?
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: CC4 on May 23, 2016, 11:35:52 pm
This said, if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.

+1

It will turn this already amazing instrument into quite a beast.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 24, 2016, 02:18:30 pm
This said, if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.

So not as a free update?
That's what it looks like unfortunately. I really, really, really want to see this added because without that it puts the lie to the thing of the Synclavier2 emulation being a faithful incarnation of the physical unit. To me the word faithful means being true to something and the current version is only part-way there.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Baptiste Arturia on May 24, 2016, 02:48:14 pm
I don't know if it will come as a free update or not, and thank god, that's not my job to think about this.
This is clearly hypothetical for now, nothing has been planned on our side, and this is not a quick feature to integrate.
We will see what the Synclavier V users community think about this in the future and we will try to do our best about it  ;)
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 24, 2016, 03:05:33 pm
I don't know if it will come as a free update or not, and thank god, that's not my job to think about this.
This is clearly hypothetical for now, nothing has been planned on our side, and this is not a quick feature to integrate.
We will see what the Synclavier V users community think about this in the future and we will try to do our best about it  ;)
This is unfortunate to say the least. To have a company say something is faithful to the original and it isn't and to further have said company say the feature (which should have been there to begin with) isn't even in the planning stages leaves me cold and without faith in said company. Looks like I'll be bypassing this VC5 upgrade at this time.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: wintersunproject on May 24, 2016, 05:00:03 pm
I think you might find your going to have a heavy number of users who want you to add the sampling side on, i cant think of a single person i know who would expect the synclavier to NOT have some kind of sample manipulation on it, for example the fairlight did FM synthesis, but you would hardly think of the fairlight as an FM synth, you would think sampler first.
If you made the plugin for a Fairlight and took away the sampling feature, you would get laughed out of here.
I personally think it should be a paid upgrade at worst, but one you should definitely implement in order to make it an authentic synclavier emulation, its something producers young and old out there have lusted after for as long as i can remember.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: infront on May 24, 2016, 06:17:27 pm
Please work it out Arturia !  :)

We are needing you to bring us the Synclavier with everything like in the past.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Amalgamoth on May 24, 2016, 07:42:25 pm
A virtual fairlight would be brilliant too or a virtual emulator II.

Are you aware of UVI's Darklight IIX or Peter Vogel's Fairlight app for ios?
I don't think Arturia needs to make haste with a Fairlight VST.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 24, 2016, 10:13:07 pm
A virtual fairlight would be brilliant too or a virtual emulator II.

Are you aware of UVI's Darklight IIX or Peter Vogel's Fairlight app for ios?
I don't think Arturia needs to make haste with a Fairlight VST.
Difficult to tell what your reply was but I figured it out. Hard to believe but there are those of us who don't own an iOS device. As to the Darklight UVI vst emulation that one isn't even close to what a real Fairlight was.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on May 24, 2016, 10:15:13 pm
I think you might find your going to have a heavy number of users who want you to add the sampling side on, i cant think of a single person i know who would expect the synclavier to NOT have some kind of sample manipulation on it, for example the fairlight did FM synthesis, but you would hardly think of the fairlight as an FM synth, you would think sampler first.
If you made the plugin for a Fairlight and took away the sampling feature, you would get laughed out of here.
I personally think it should be a paid upgrade at worst, but one you should definitely implement in order to make it an authentic synclavier emulation, its something producers young and old out there have lusted after for as long as i can remember.
Agreed 10000% At least let us fly in our own samples.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: csbyron on May 29, 2016, 03:13:00 am
I totally agree, we NEED the Synclavier  RESYNTHESIS Engine to morph and mix Sampled Timbre slices
AND WAV/AIFF Sample Import for OSC sounds!

PLEASE , lets get this ASAP!
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jmcecil on May 30, 2016, 03:52:07 pm
yep, bringing in samples and doing resampling would be super sweet. I don't know that actually being able to sample would be that big a deal as long as the resampling functions are there.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Larsaf on June 04, 2016, 11:27:47 am
if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.
Please ;)

Oh yes. :)
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on June 04, 2016, 12:37:23 pm
yep, bringing in samples and doing resampling would be super sweet. I don't know that actually being able to sample would be that big a deal as long as the resampling functions are there.
At least allow us to fly in our own samples; the Synclavier doesn't have to actually do the sampling.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: deb76 on June 05, 2016, 04:02:56 pm
Hi,

The Synclavier V does not allow to import your own samples in the time slice engine, you are right.
We've considered the option of integrating this feature in the software.
But we've chosen to focus on the FM and Additive engines which already offer a crazy wide range of sound design possibilities, especially combined with the time slice feature.

This said, if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.
At least give it a try now if you are interested by this synth, you might be surprised.
Thanks for the explanation but the sampling/resynthesis is as much of a part of the soul of the Synclavier 2 as the additive and FM synthesis. It's what helped them compete against the Fairlight CMI and other systems out there. To see that it's not included is sad. There was only one other synth (the Farfisa) in V Collection 5 upgrade that would make me part with my cash for the upgrade. Now I have to think long and hard about purchasing this as it now stands.
I personally do not care functions Sampler in Synclavier Arturia. And I think you are rather unfair to the team that emulated the legendary synthesizer and worth a fortune. I for one thank them because it can get really complex, evolving timbres, and with a sound that sounds. It's a great plugin.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on June 05, 2016, 07:17:12 pm
Hi,

The Synclavier V does not allow to import your own samples in the time slice engine, you are right.
We've considered the option of integrating this feature in the software.
But we've chosen to focus on the FM and Additive engines which already offer a crazy wide range of sound design possibilities, especially combined with the time slice feature.

This said, if that's really what the Synclavier V users want, we may reconsider including the resynthesis engine in a v 2.0.
At least give it a try now if you are interested by this synth, you might be surprised.
Thanks for the explanation but the sampling/resynthesis is as much of a part of the soul of the Synclavier 2 as the additive and FM synthesis. It's what helped them compete against the Fairlight CMI and other systems out there. To see that it's not included is sad. There was only one other synth (the Farfisa) in V Collection 5 upgrade that would make me part with my cash for the upgrade. Now I have to think long and hard about purchasing this as it now stands.
I personally do not care functions Sampler in Synclavier Arturia. And I think you are rather unfair to the team that emulated the legendary synthesizer and worth a fortune. I for one thank them because it can get really complex, evolving timbres, and with a sound that sounds. It's a great plugin.
Sure it's a great a plugin for those that don't have knowledge or experience with the original hardware. To those of us that do it's only half of what could be a truly great plugin. Forgive us or not for being passionate about this - that's up to you. Until we get this we're going to keep on hammering Arturia here and elsewheres until it's a working reality. You may not care about it but we do.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: wintersunproject on June 05, 2016, 08:32:34 pm
THIS !

[/quote]Sure it's a great a plugin for those that don't have knowledge or experience with the original hardware. To those of us that do it's only half of what could be a truly great plugin. Forgive us or not for being passionate about this - that's up to you. Until we get this we're going to keep on hammering Arturia here and elsewheres until it's a working reality. You may not care about it but we do.
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: deb76 on June 05, 2016, 11:39:17 pm
jackn2mpu ==> Sure it's a great plugin to For Those That do not-have knowledge or experience with the original hardware.
True, but I have never worked with the original. What interests me is not before but what I can do with this Synclavier Arturia and obviously I can do many things. Then it's a matter of working, I work with very few samples, and I prefer to create my sound via synthesis, additive and FM here.

PS : What I like is that I started music in 1981 and VAX computer on PDP11 with Music 10 at IRCAM and some Synclavier sounds remind me of some digital sounds of musical Station IRCAM 4X. Enough to my pleasure.

Sorry for my bad english.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on June 06, 2016, 12:17:13 pm
jackn2mpu ==> Sure it's a great plugin to For Those That do not-have knowledge or experience with the original hardware.
True, but I have never worked with the original. What interests me is not before but what I can do with this Synclavier Arturia and obviously I can do many things. Then it's a matter of working, I work with very few samples, and I prefer to create my sound via synthesis, additive and FM here.

PS : What I like is that I started music in 1981 and VAX computer on PDP11 with Music 10 at IRCAM and some Synclavier sounds remind me of some digital sounds of musical Station IRCAM 4X. Enough to my pleasure.

Sorry for my bad english.
Just because you don't work with many samples and prefer to create your sounds from scratch is okay and I'm not dissing that. We each work different and it's not an either/or situation as some of us create sounds using both samples, FM and additive methods. Using samples allows one to go beyond the static waveforms a developer has in their creation. It's just that there are those of us that do work a lot with samples and for Arturia to call their Synclavier a 'faithful' recreation of the original Synclavier 2 and leave out the sampling/resynthesis feature isn't right.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on June 06, 2016, 03:34:15 pm
First - Feature requests is okay.


Is this what's all this is about?

3.1 - Synclavier - Video Cassette - [ The SAMPLE-TO-DISK System ]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPzBFcXC2G8
3.2 - Synclavier - Video Cassette - [ The SAMPLE-TO-DISK System ]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK04cjS55wA

Could the samples be modified to sound completely different from the original sample. That perhaps could be something. But it's not shown in theese videos as i can tell.
Don't need another "simple" sampler or more soundfiles to fill my drives.

Being able to import different soundwaves could be somthing i could use. Or a sor a sort of wave tables for the harmonics would be very nice. Only the normal waveforms like sine, square etc., is pre programmed now in Synvlavier V.
Could samples be used like a waveform like that in the origianl Synclavier 2?

Harmonics in therory can create any waveform if you know how to. Okay just 24 harmonics is used in Synclavier V, but still. Don't think that make to many audioble limitations.
Am i wrong?

Why is this sample feature that important? What will it add? Just asking.

And perhaps someone find the videos amusing.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: csbyron on June 06, 2016, 10:32:38 pm
Yes, we users really need that sampling Resynthesis option put into the synclavier.
Such a huge part of the software.
I hope you guys can start to implement it within the next 6 months...
There is a need in the market for a vintage sampler with Resynthesis.
There are none!!
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Hagen11 on June 17, 2016, 10:15:10 am
yes, please do.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: drpgleeson on July 28, 2016, 11:49:51 pm
Re "missing" resynthesis: my recollection (I was an early Synclavier adapter back in the day) is that while NED promised resynthesis, there never was a program doing actual resynthesis, which requires two parts: an analysis method of the input waveform and a reproduction method to create the synthesized output waveform. The analysis, to be useful, would have to be more than static -- it would require analyzing many samples of the actual instrument. I won't even get into blown or bowed instruments, which are relatively trickier. But even a resynthesized piano would probably need at least 50 loudness levels (and some classical pianists claim that they have 100 loudness levels at their command). Each of these levels would have a different overtone profile varying over time. You'd have to capture that in some way -- either laboriously analyzing the original waveform many times--every millisecond would be, I'd guess, pretty much the minimum -- or else figuring out some clever way of building an algorhithm that produced an analogous dynamic overtone change based, for instance, on the overtone decays subsequent to the vibration of a taut metal string.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that actual resynthesis has never been successfully managed. I've owned a couple of instruments that purported to produce resampling and they were only able to approximate a "toy" version of the original -- toy flute, etc.

But it's probably more interesting and a whole lot easier to resynthesize a waveform statically -- in other words, reproduce it's overtone series at a single moment of time -- then figure out "interesting" rather than "accurate" ways of dynamically changing it: FM, AM, periodic or aperiodic manipulation of individual overtones or groups of overtones, , overtone frequency shifting, etc. For instance, you could resynthesize an mf piano, then arrange a way of shifting the overtone series from the usual one for most melodic instruments to the overtone series for a struck rod. If this were available as a dynamic modulation using a mod wheel, listening to the transformation could be musically and conceptually pleasing.

Having said this, I doubt that Arturia's going to spend a lot of money developing a resynthesis capability (although I'd love to be wrong); for one thing, not many musicians really want to dive into the complexities of a resynthesis program.  Or any synthesis program, for that matter. One of the guys at Sequential Circuits told me that almost all the original Prophet 5s that came back for service still had all 40 of the original factory patches, without the slightest alteration.   
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on July 29, 2016, 01:10:56 pm
Re "missing" resynthesis: my recollection (I was an early Synclavier adapter back in the day) is that while NED promised resynthesis, there never was a program doing actual resynthesis, which requires two parts: an analysis method of the input waveform and a reproduction method to create the synthesized output waveform. The analysis, to be useful, would have to be more than static -- it would require analyzing many samples of the actual instrument. I won't even get into blown or bowed instruments, which are relatively trickier. But even a resynthesized piano would probably need at least 50 loudness levels (and some classical pianists claim that they have 100 loudness levels at their command). Each of these levels would have a different overtone profile varying over time. You'd have to capture that in some way -- either laboriously analyzing the original waveform many times--every millisecond would be, I'd guess, pretty much the minimum -- or else figuring out some clever way of building an algorhithm that produced an analogous dynamic overtone change based, for instance, on the overtone decays subsequent to the vibration of a taut metal string.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that actual resynthesis has never been successfully managed. I've owned a couple of instruments that purported to produce resampling and they were only able to approximate a "toy" version of the original -- toy flute, etc.

But it's probably more interesting and a whole lot easier to resynthesize a waveform statically -- in other words, reproduce it's overtone series at a single moment of time -- then figure out "interesting" rather than "accurate" ways of dynamically changing it: FM, AM, periodic or aperiodic manipulation of individual overtones or groups of overtones, , overtone frequency shifting, etc. For instance, you could resynthesize an mf piano, then arrange a way of shifting the overtone series from the usual one for most melodic instruments to the overtone series for a struck rod. If this were available as a dynamic modulation using a mod wheel, listening to the transformation could be musically and conceptually pleasing.

Having said this, I doubt that Arturia's going to spend a lot of money developing a resynthesis capability (although I'd love to be wrong); for one thing, not many musicians really want to dive into the complexities of a resynthesis program.  Or any synthesis program, for that matter. One of the guys at Sequential Circuits told me that almost all the original Prophet 5s that came back for service still had all 40 of the original factory patches, without the slightest alteration.   
Somehow I have trouble believing this when it come from someone who's said they're going to use a cracked version of Arturia s/w in this thread: http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=82293.msg111520#msg111520 (http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=82293.msg111520#msg111520)
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on July 29, 2016, 09:48:42 pm
Hi all,

I found this about sampling and re-synthesis. Is this what you who wan't the resynthesis feature in synclavier want?
http://electronicmusic.wikia.com/wiki/Resynthesis
http://electronicmusic.wikia.com/wiki/Fourier_transform
http://electronicmusic.wikia.com/wikai/Fast_Fourier_transform
http://electronicmusic.wikia.com/wiki/Walsh_functions

As i among other things wrote in this thread: http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=87690.0
"Being able to import different soundwaves like a sort of wave tables for the harmonics would be a thing i could use. Only the normal waveforms like sine, square and saw is pre programmed in Synvlavier V now.
Harmonics can in therory create any waveform if you know how to. And some kind of wave -/ harmonic table could make that easier. So some kind of wave -/ harmonic table is a feature i request."

How should the sample based resynthesis make a better option for Synclavier V?

If the feature was such a vital part of synclavier, why can't anyone that want the feature supply an example of some kind that can make me want it? It would really help me understand.

Best



Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Koshdukai on July 30, 2016, 05:08:00 am
Is this what's all this is about?

Yes, as seen @30:42 (https://youtu.be/lPzBFcXC2G8?t=30m42s)

or as described here:
Resynthesis on the Synclavier Audio System (http://www.500sound.com/resyn.html)

or from the July 1984 preliminary version (scanned into a PDF) here: RESYNTHESIS ON THE SYNCLAVIER - THE SFM ANALYSIS PROGRAM (http://ned.synthesizers.fr/Downloads/User_Manual/Resynthesis_on_the_Synclavier.pdf)

The sampling capability together with the analysis capability would allow us to more easily and rapidly make timbre frames (time slices) based on "real" (or whatever) sounds (samples) which would add another level of frame/slice creation instead of painfully doing it by hand/synthetically (which is just half of the fun).
It would be easier to make more time-based dynamic sounds based on more natural sounding timbre frames (time slices).

IMHO, it would allow us to both have a more complete experience (i.e. the "other half") of dealing with a Synclavier emulation while also allowing us to take full advantage of something that's already in the current Synclavier V version: the timbre frames (time slices), but through the sampling+analysis=>resynthesis angle (because we can already do resynthesis but "manually", by painstakingly creating every time slice by hand).

Re "missing" resynthesis: my recollection (I was an early Synclavier adapter back in the day) is that while NED promised resynthesis, there never was a program doing actual resynthesis, which requires two parts: an analysis method of the input waveform and a reproduction method to create the synthesized output waveform. The analysis, to be useful, would have to be more than static -- it would require analyzing many samples of the actual instrument.
Not sure what you're calling "actual resynthesis". There's many levels of resynthesis and quality. It's like saying an 8bit 8KHz sample isn't a sample, because it's missing a lot from the original. It's always a sample, a low quality one, but a sample, nonetheless.

I think no-one here is asking for high-fidelity high-dynamic resynthesis like you describe.
What's "missing" is exactly what the original Synclavier allowed in 1984 i.e. "automated" creation of timbre frames (time slices) through sample analysis. That's it.

That's, to me, the only "big feature" currently missing ...besides "pure/simple" sample playback... but only as a side-effect bonus of going to the trouble of adding audio (Sample) support in Synclavier  V :)
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on July 30, 2016, 01:03:32 pm
Is this what's all this is about?

Yes, as seen @30:42 (https://youtu.be/lPzBFcXC2G8?t=30m42s)

or as described here:
Resynthesis on the Synclavier Audio System (http://www.500sound.com/resyn.html)

or from the July 1984 preliminary version (scanned into a PDF) here: RESYNTHESIS ON THE SYNCLAVIER - THE SFM ANALYSIS PROGRAM (http://ned.synthesizers.fr/Downloads/User_Manual/Resynthesis_on_the_Synclavier.pdf)

The sampling capability together with the analysis capability would allow us to more easily and rapidly make timbre frames (time slices) based on "real" (or whatever) sounds (samples) which would add another level of frame/slice creation instead of painfully doing it by hand/synthetically (which is just half of the fun).
It would be easier to make more time-based dynamic sounds based on more natural sounding timbre frames (time slices).

IMHO, it would allow us to both have a more complete experience (i.e. the "other half") of dealing with a Synclavier emulation while also allowing us to take full advantage of something that's already in the current Synclavier V version: the timbre frames (time slices), but through the sampling+analysis=>resynthesis angle (because we can already do resynthesis but "manually", by painstakingly creating every time slice by hand).

Re "missing" resynthesis: my recollection (I was an early Synclavier adapter back in the day) is that while NED promised resynthesis, there never was a program doing actual resynthesis, which requires two parts: an analysis method of the input waveform and a reproduction method to create the synthesized output waveform. The analysis, to be useful, would have to be more than static -- it would require analyzing many samples of the actual instrument.
Not sure what you're calling "actual resynthesis". There's many levels of resynthesis and quality. It's like saying an 8bit 8KHz sample isn't a sample, because it's missing a lot from the original. It's always a sample, a low quality one, but a sample, nonetheless.

I think no-one here is asking for high-fidelity high-dynamic resynthesis like you describe.
What's "missing" is exactly what the original Synclavier allowed in 1984 i.e. "automated" creation of timbre frames (time slices) through sample analysis. That's it.

That's, to me, the only "big feature" currently missing ...besides "pure/simple" sample playback... but only as a side-effect bonus of going to the trouble of adding audio (Sample) support in Synclavier  V :)
Perfectly stated and thanks for the work.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on July 30, 2016, 06:43:45 pm
Hi Koshdukai,

Thanks for your post and the links.

Maybe i'm slow, but i can't see it's simple, easy or don't demand that much of the software to use samples.

As i understand it, then it's not just importing a sample, and then everything works automatictly to use it for resynthesis.

Reading in the PDF you have posted a link to, then it looks like you have to extract several waveforms using harmonics to build a sound using timeframes like you describe. Also the links i posted suggest so.

Even if it looks like Synclavier for some things could read 128 harmaonics, then all functions only worked when reading 24 harmonics to create timbres to use in timeframes just like you can ceate a harmonic waveform for each frame in Synclavier V.
24 harmonics is what Arturia Synclavier V have to form waveforms. The original Synclavier did not have this feature. It used only Sine waves i believe.

So to me it looks like what the original Synclavier did when extracting waveforms was the same you can do using the harmonics in Synclavier V and you even have more modulation possibilties in Synclavier V.

To me it looks like it's much easier and much better to use the harmonics in Synclavier V.
My feature request is to have more preprogrammed harmonic waveforms availble in "wavetables". Those waveforms could for example even be Brass blow attack, Brass sustain, Brass end and many more like you could/ would/ should do when extracting in the original Synclavier.
My Requested feature can be extended to be able to import harmonic waveforms.
Then one can extract a waveform from a sample using a different software that do this well, and then import it in Synclavier if one want to do so. Why should this feature be a part of Synclavier V that has harmonics to use? I still see it as a optional feature.

I don't know, but i can imagine there is allready waveforms based on 24 harmonics availble somewhere. You can find waveforms to use in wavetables, so why not 24 harmonics waves.

As i asked - what can samples do that the harmonics waveforms can't?
That question is for me essentiel to be answered. The answers i in my current understanding have for this now, is . nothing.

Also i understand it's not the normal sample feature people posted that is interesting. That other samplers can do well today. This feature i would think will be exspensive if it shall match other quality samplers out there.

And apparantly it's not just to import a sample and manipulate the samples sound that is requested either.
So to me the Harmonics - added a "Wavetable" with lots of harmonics waveforms and added a wave import feature is way better and easier to work with. And then you can use another program to extract waveforms from a sample of yours if you wan't to. If such a progrm don't cost that much, then it's okay if Arturia add that to the arsenal. But again - why do it need to be a part of Synclavier V? AM i still missing something? If so  - what?


Best
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Koshdukai on July 30, 2016, 07:39:52 pm
[...] i can't see it's simple, easy or don't demand that much of the software to use samples.

As i understand it, then it's not just importing a sample, and then everything works automatictly to use it for resynthesis.

[...] why do it need to be a part of Synclavier V? AM i still missing something? If so  - what?

Being able to load a sample into Synclavier V would give us 1 of 2 possibilities:
1) Use Synclavier V as a regular sample player, just like the original Synclavier allowed once upgraded to such.

Being able to do Analysis on that loaded sample would give us the 2nd possibility:
2) To take (24 harmonic) spectrum snapshots at user-defined points in the sample, "automating" the spectrum designing of each of the time slices based on each user-defined point in the analysis process. That alone would use Synclavier's already existing ability to morph those spectrum based time slices through the timeline of the note.

That's all I would like to get out of a feature improvement of Synclavier V which is (AFAIK) what a fully equipped 1984 Synclavier would allow.
I'm basically saying the same as what's described in the linked documents:

«These sound 'pictures' are then spliced together into a series of timbre frames that crossfade from one to the next. (A timbre frame could be thought of as an individual partial timbre with it's own unique set of harmonics, volume, possibly it's own pitch, and several other parameters which you will see as you use the software). The enormous power for RESYNTHESIS then places these automatically computed timbre frames one after another, giving you many, many sets of harmonics in succession as you play the note. In some cases it would be as though you had as many as 64 different partial timbres flying by as you play each note.»

If I'm not mistaken, Synclavier V allows 50 frames per Partial, so if needed and as an extreme, we could have a 50x12=600 frame based 5min (speaking of a sequence of "pictures", then I will call it a) "movie" of a sound. That would be your resynthesized version of the original sample.

If the Analysis process isn't improved, the user would have to manually place/set all those 50 analysis points.
...12 times, 1 per partial for its own 1/12th section of the sample, if you wanted to achieve the maximum accuracy of 600 slices/frames instead of 50.

If improved, this process could also easily be helped with data point rule-based auto-distribution tools, somewhat similar to the kind of improvement Arturia did with the harmonic design tools in the Slice screen.

If I understand it correctly, Synclavier's Resynthesis process only uses the Additive part of its synthesis engine, not the FM part, so the modulator now being also additive in V would be irrelevant for the above... unless you then wanted to manually mess with the additive-based resynthesized sound, through FM :)


If you want to speak of Wavetables, then consider each slice as an additive-based wave and a sequence of those slices to be your additive-based wave "table" but more powerful because the (time) "distance" between each of the waves in this "wave-table" is naturally variable and not artificially controlled by a (often linear) modulator, as usually is in wavetable synthesis.



The Synclavier concept is truly so powerful (and it's all there already in Synclavier V except sample loading+playing) that it really needs a lot of computer-aided guidance (and a well designed UI) to take advantage of its original/current possibilities.

In the current version, the only "computer-aided" layer we have is the Harmonic drawing tools and waveshape spectrum presets together with the Harmonic Select options.
There's a lot more layers that could be added to the existing time-sliced Additive+FM synthesis engine capabilities of Synclavier.

The Sample (loading)+Analysis is just 1 of many of those "computer-aided" layers that can be added to tackle what we have in Synclavier V.
NED was in the right path of technical feature evolution, adding to the time-based Additive+FM the digital sampling capabilities and then merging those 2 into Resynthesis by using the already existing computational power in the instrument.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on July 30, 2016, 08:19:00 pm
Hi Koshdukai,

Thanks for your post and the links.

Maybe i'm slow, but i can't see it's simple, easy or don't demand that much of the software to use samples.

As i understand it, then it's not just importing a sample, and then everything works automatictly to use it for resynthesis.

Reading in the PDF you have posted a link to, then it looks like you have to extract several waveforms using harmonics to build a sound using timeframes like you describe. Also the links i posted suggest so.

Even if it looks like Synclavier for some things could read 128 harmaonics, then all functions only worked when reading 24 harmonics to create timbres to use in timeframes just like you can ceate a harmonic waveform for each frame in Synclavier V.
24 harmonics is what Arturia Synclavier V have to form waveforms. The original Synclavier did not have this feature. It used only Sine waves i believe.

So to me it looks like what the original Synclavier did when extracting waveforms was the same you can do using the harmonics in Synclavier V and you even have more modulation possibilties in Synclavier V.

To me it looks like it's much easier and much better to use the harmonics in Synclavier V.
My feature request is to have more preprogrammed harmonic waveforms availble in "wavetables". Those waveforms could for example even be Brass blow attack, Brass sustain, Brass end and many more like you could/ would/ should do when extracting in the original Synclavier.
My Requested feature can be extended to be able to import harmonic waveforms.
Then one can extract a waveform from a sample using a different software that do this well, and then import it in Synclavier if one want to do so. Why should this feature be a part of Synclavier V that has harmonics to use? I still see it as a optional feature.

I don't know, but i can imagine there is allready waveforms based on 24 harmonics availble somewhere. You can find waveforms to use in wavetables, so why not 24 harmonics waves.

As i asked - what can samples do that the harmonics waveforms can't?
That question is for me essentiel to be answered. The answers i in my current understanding have for this now, is . nothing.

Also i understand it's not the normal sample feature people posted that is interesting. That other samplers can do well today. This feature i would think will be exspensive if it shall match other quality samplers out there.

And apparantly it's not just to import a sample and manipulate the samples sound that is requested either.
So to me the Harmonics - added a "Wavetable" with lots of harmonics waveforms and added a wave import feature is way better and easier to work with. And then you can use another program to extract waveforms from a sample of yours if you wan't to. If such a progrm don't cost that much, then it's okay if Arturia add that to the arsenal. But again - why do it need to be a part of Synclavier V? AM i still missing something? If so  - what?


Best
Samples can give way more complexity to the sound than just harmonics ever can. You would have to have an infinite amount of harmonics to re-create what a sample can do/sound like.

Let me ask you a question: why does one need to extract a waveform from a sample? A sample IS a waveform; a complex waveform but still a waveform.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Koshdukai on July 30, 2016, 08:35:11 pm
Samples can give way more complexity to the sound than just harmonics ever can. You would have to have an infinite amount of harmonics to re-create what a sample can do/sound like.

Let me ask you a question: why does one need to extract a waveform from a sample? A sample IS a waveform; a complex waveform but still a waveform.
I'll repeat what I've said already: «There's many levels of resynthesis and quality. [...]

I think no-one here is asking for high-fidelity high-dynamic resynthesis [...]»

Independently of the above, resynthesis (no matter how far or close from the original) allows fixed-time pitch variability, meaning, once the spectrum sequence is defined, that can be played at the same time independently of the pitch and vice-versa, you can speed up the time-slice "playing" at the same pitch.

So, a sample (section) is a waveform, yes. But you're locked to the sample-rate it was made, so playing a set of sample points (i.e a sound sample) at a different pitch (sample-rate) will mess with its playing duration (a very well known effect of sample playing).


Sampling is like a bit-mapped image and Resynthesis is like a vector-based picture.

If you zoom in a bit-mapped image, you'll see the pixels but if you zoom in a vector-based picture, you'll never seen any unique pixels... you'll just lose some visual context after a while of zooming.

Same thing with time slicing harmonic snapshots of a sound :)


But, I'm not trying to turn Synclavier V into the ultimate Resynthesis machine! I'm just asking for what was already possible in the 90's with it (although with a bit more modern and useful UI) :)



...and you'd still have the "simple" Sample Playing capability, once sample loading (and playing) was added to allow Sample Analysis ;)
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on July 31, 2016, 01:10:44 am
Thanks again Koshdukai,

It's objective posts - just added a little "i would like that feature". That's fine.

If i read your posts correct, then we actually agree in vital parts.
The re-synthesis in Synclavier involve "Morphing" between points with different harmonic waveforms - just like you can do in Synclavier V now. The main difference between the original Synclavier and Synclavier V is you in the original used samples to extract the harmonic waves from part of the sample to create frames while you use the harmonic table in Synclavier V.

About the synthesis then i'm not sure i understand you, as i believe you can do it all in Synclavier V.
In the Synclavier V manual you can read this:
"1.1 What is Synclavier V?
The Synclavier V is a software emulation of the Synclavier Digital Synthesizer, combining Additive, FM (Frequency Modulation) and Timbre Frame synthesis"

To me the only thing that remain is how the waveforms is obtained for the timbre frame.
I still can't see the difference between using a sample or the harmonic table except you can extract your own Waveform from a sample instead of creating a waveform using the harmonic table.

This i qoute from you:
"If you want to speak of Wavetables, then consider each slice as an additive-based wave and a sequence of those slices to be your additive-based wave "table" but more powerful because the (time) "distance" between each of the waves in this "wave-table" is naturally variable and not artificially controlled by a (often linear) modulator, as usually is in wavetable synthesis."

I'm not sure i understand this even if i have thought about if there could be something about the time factor. I would think a waveform extracted from a sample and put in a wavetable as a wave you can recall to set the harmonics both as soundwave and modulator should give the same outcome. But yes - there might be a little difference or variation here. But i can't see it can be so significant if so.

Could the differences not be covered if we had 24 harmonics wavetables to set the harmonics in both the audio waveform and and modulator tables, and the possibility to import sample extracted waveforms from a seperate program to use the same way? I would believe so.

It's true that the simple sampler feature need to use samples. But there are so many samplers.

I should add, that i'm not a technician. But this is my understanding.

Best
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on July 31, 2016, 01:12:49 am
Hi jackn2mpu

Some things has been answered. But let me add this directly to your post and question.

you say:
"Samples can give way more complexity to the sound than just harmonics ever can. You would have to have an infinite amount of harmonics to re-create what a sample can do/sound like."

No you only have possible infinite harmonics in a sample if the samples sample rate is infinite.
I theese days many talk about using 192000 HZ sample rate. So lets be crazy and say we have a sample sampled in 196000 Hz and play a fundamental note at 20 HZ. Then you'll have 192000/2/20 = 4800 harmonics in the sample including the fundamental and only if the sound you play on that 20 HZ note have those harmonics in the sound.
24 harmonics cover 4 octaves + a fifth above the fundamental note played if the sound have those harmonics.
A drawbar organ having a 16 feet and a 1 feet drawbar reach 4 octaves if you use both those drawbars. But it don't have all the harmonics between. Just to set it in perspective.
Also consider the purpose.

And then you ask me:
why does one need to extract a waveform from a sample? A sample IS a waveform; a complex waveform but still a waveform."

Synclavier did'nt use a whole sample for frame based resynthesis. It extracted calculated waveforms like you can read in the PDF in the post you said was well put by Koshdukai and in other places including in the availble posts and material in the forum about the subject. You can read reasons in the PDF too.
So if you wan't the original Synclavier feature that you and others request, then you need to extract waveforms from your samples, use points and use "Morphing" between frames, and use the needed time to do so.
Perhaps Hartmans Neuron used samples for resynthesis in another way.

Are you sure the feature you actually wan't is'nt excisting in samplers and other synths allready?
 
EDIT:
Found this. It's still speciel rendered samples but perhaps more what you are looking for. This i perhaps could use. Think it do things in a different way than other synths. But it's possible to create sound in that direction using softsynths and effects. Perhaps not quite the same.

Neuron Synthesizer Intro Axel Hartmann:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWIH6zhKR8s

Hartmann Neuron Demo Part1+2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeumP2tRqpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zmnj3AmSbY

Hartmann Neuron Demo - More regular sounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mvPVxPeU6w

EDIT END.


Best
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Koshdukai on July 31, 2016, 01:38:24 am
The re-synthesis in Synclavier involve "Morphing" between points with different harmonic waveforms - just like you can do in Synclavier V now. The main difference between the original Synclavier and Synclavier V is you in the original used samples to extract the harmonic waves from part of the sample to create frames while you use the harmonic table in Synclavier V.
No, the difference is that a fully setup Synclavier was able to use both methods: what we have now in Synclavier V (though limited to 4 partial timbres) plus the Analysis method as a helper tool to build those time slices based of a sample.


About the synthesis then i'm not sure i understand you, as i believe you can do it all in Synclavier V.
In the Synclavier V manual you can read this:
"1.1 What is Synclavier V?
The Synclavier V is a software emulation of the Synclavier Digital Synthesizer, combining Additive, FM (Frequency Modulation) and Timbre Frame synthesis"
Yeah I'm saying exactly that :)
That's what we have now: Additive (harmonic drawing) and FM (modulator editing) on a timeline. Extremely powerful stuff already.
In the current version, the only "computer-aided" layer we have is the Harmonic drawing tools and waveshape spectrum presets together with the Harmonic Select options.
There's a lot more layers that could be added to the existing time-sliced Additive+FM synthesis engine capabilities of Synclavier.

The Sample (loading)+Analysis is just 1 of many of those "computer-aided" layers that can be added to tackle what we have in Synclavier V.
NED was in the right path of technical feature evolution, adding to the time-based Additive+FM the digital sampling capabilities and then merging those 2 into Resynthesis by using the already existing computational power in the instrument.


To me the only thing that remain is how the waveforms is obtained for the timbre frame.
I still can't see the difference between using a sample or the harmonic table except you can extract your own Waveform from a sample instead of creating a waveform using the harmonic table.
It's almost like the difference between auto-tracing a photo and doing a hand-drawing from scratch ;)


It's true that the simple sampler feature need to use samples. But there are so many samplers.
Sample playing would be just a nice additional bonus, once sample loading had to be implemented for Analysis to work.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on July 31, 2016, 02:09:38 am
It's almost like the difference between auto-tracing a photo and doing a hand-drawing from scratch ;)

Choosing a set of pre made  harmonics (Even created from samples) in a menu/ wavetable is a fast lane too. And don't need that much work.  :)

I guess Arturia do what they wan't to do.

As i have written in the forum very early, then i could see a purpose for extracting waveforms from a sample, and also for using very long samples amplitude as modulation source. The first apparantly was a possibility. I just began to think that Synclaviers harmonics feature could be used instead if more pre-made waveforms that the saw, triangle and square odd and even filters and so on was availble for instant use. The re-synthesis is there. Just without exstracting from samples.

And yes the "normal" sampler feature is'nt there. It's a matter if you think you can do without it or not. A good sampler requiere many samples to cover a full range keyboard and velocity layers. But for instance for simple one shots it take less.

I still see no reason to pay to much money for the sample feature. And i see no reason to put to much developing time in the feature. If it can be done cheap and don't take to much space on my drives, then it's okay for me to get sample features. But as i see it there are better and more fleksible alternatives.

But thanks for helping me to get more understanding on how Synclavier actually worked.

Best


Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: jackn2mpu on July 31, 2016, 12:50:46 pm
It's almost like the difference between auto-tracing a photo and doing a hand-drawing from scratch ;)

Choosing a set of pre made  harmonics (Even created from samples) in a menu/ wavetable is a fast lane too. And don't need that much work.  :)

I guess Arturia do what they wan't to do.

As i have written in the forum very early, then i could see a purpose for extracting waveforms from a sample, and also for using very long samples amplitude as modulation source. The first apparantly was a possibility. I just began to think that Synclaviers harmonics feature could be used instead if more pre-made waveforms that the saw, triangle and square odd and even filters and so on was availble for instant use. The re-synthesis is there. Just without exstracting from samples.

And yes the "normal" sampler feature is'nt there. It's a matter if you think you can do without it or not. A good sampler requiere many samples to cover a full range keyboard and velocity layers. But for instance for simple one shots it take less.

I still see no reason to pay to much money for the sample feature. And i see no reason to put to much developing time in the feature. If it can be done cheap and don't take to much space on my drives, then it's okay for me to get sample features. But as i see it there are better and more fleksible alternatives.

But thanks for helping me to get more understanding on how Synclavier actually worked.

Best
You see no reason for having the sampling/resynthesis for the way you work and that's fine. There's nothing that says you need to get the update if/when it ever happens. But there are those of us who do want all that's possible with the Synclavier, especially when it's something the original hardware can do. As to space on hard drives that means nothing as drive storage is cheap nowadays.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: Madtux on October 16, 2016, 05:29:11 am
I paid for the upgrade to V5.  Everything is great but I hadn't done my research on the Synclavier.  So now Im still using Kontakt for sampling sounds which is ok but i wanted something that had a more vintage approach.  It's kind of like releasing the Jupiter 8 without the arpeggio.
Title: Re: The Synclavier V... sampling missing ?
Post by: LBH on November 20, 2016, 01:10:51 am
Is this what you what regarding resynthesis?
Did Synclavier all this including the tuning, playmodes and other parameters?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXNa70ea_iQ