Arturia Forums
V Collection - Legacy versions => CS-80V => CS-80V Technical Issues => Topic started by: omissis on January 27, 2005, 12:40:56 pm
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Hallo all cs80v users.
As dedicate CS-80Vist my wish is to see this wonderful thing improved day by day to such a level of perfection that it would become definitely the ultimate soft-synthesizer for musical expressiveness and timbrical power.
That's why I would like to make this thread a confrontation yard and a place to share informations between CS-80V users and Arturia developement staff ,wishing all the occasional bugs would be fixed as well as any sound improvement made.
Actually, the most significant bugs I found are:
1. unpleasant sound artifact when using the ringmodulator at low modulation amount ( the harmonics change like some kind of "flanging" or sync or pulsewidth modulation )
2. the ringmod A-D levers don't work in real time
3. the ringmod modulating sine needs a subtle improvement ( on the CS-80 the sine looked like something between a regular sine and a triangular )
4. There are some annoying quantization stepping when moving especially the ring modulator levers
5. the ribbon controller has an "audible" pitch return when releasing the control , unlike the original where the pitch switched immediately to the starting point
The above bugs, although don't compromise the overall quality of this instrument , need some cure .
Now , here are a couple of wishes I hope there will be included on an hypothetical version 2.0:
First of all this thing needs free running oscillators as soon as possible!next....
1. A Microtuning page with 16 (sixteen) microtuning trimmers ,one for each virtual voice card . I think this would hit a fundamental center in this emulation : the original suffered from the problem that , even with the higher tuning accuracy , the voice cards weren't perfectly tuned almost ever, so each note sounded slightly different from the other and, by layering the synthesis lines there could have been some differences ,e.g in detuning, from one note to the other....
By summing up this feature with TAE could put the "V" shockingly close to the sound of the original!
2. An External Control Input to use as a Sub Oscillator Wavform (as on the original )
3. To have the RM as a Destination choice on the Matrix : yes I know it is mono and global for all the voices but I would be happy even with fixed assignation e.g. Velocity to RM-MOD or (Channel)Aftertouch to RM-MOD
4. Some subtle cosmetical fixings, for example to restore a correct "colour code" to the panel presets , e.g. :all the "FUNKY" presets on GREEN buttons and "GUITAR" presets in Yellow and substituing the "12" writing with a "P" for Panel settings.
5. Useful to add more keyboard and pckey shortcuts for example to recall a panel preset on the fly while playing rather than using mouse
6. A general re-design of the patch storage seems needed: the ability to save a patch per synthesis line rather than a general patch saving would be much more respectful of the original character
These are my wishes. Now I would be glad to have your opinion ;-) !
Cheers
Max
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Hi
I think the trimmers should have a maximum range of a quarter tone,unless people doesn't want to play with a completely out-of-tune CS-80V synthesizer ;-) !!
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On the original, the oscillators could be driven down into inaudibility using the ribbon. Adding this would bring the CS80V another step closer to the real CS80.
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Hi
The Linear mode is already implemented in version 1.2By setting the pitch knob to zero you can have down pitching to 0 Hz. An useful little correction could be made in the GUI ,by the way, allowing the 0 Hz down by starting when you click the mouse in the right end of the virtual ribbon, and allowing the 1 Octave pitch up only by clicking on the left end.
What should be best would be to remove the audible pitch return which doesn't exist on the original.
I think that, with any pitch controller the 0Hz can be reached easily...
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I would like to first see improvements on things that make it more analogue like the mentioned free running oscillators. Also, there's no interpolation on parameters like filter cutoff. When I'm sending CCs with my controller, you get the dreadful zipper noise on some patches, very digital sounding. Maybe I'm too spoiled with my Creamware vintage emulations :)
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Hi, something to stop the annoying changes to the patch selection in Cubase SX2, and anything to make the sound more faithful to the hardeware version. Mark
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HI
I think that the suggestions put in my above first post can give the synth a definite analog character (especially combining Freerun VCOs with the 16 microtuning trimmers function ), and by removing the digital stepping and noises we can have a tweaked to perfection synth....I talked once I would even pay for such updates, and I still believe I would do...however if them should have been released freely I won't complain at all 8) :wink: !
BTW: an Open Standard Control support would give the CS-80V the opportunity to be played with 32-bit resolution ,and tweaking it with things like the upcoming Cycling'74's "Lemur" would give a shocking analogue feel....but I think this could only be a dream.... :(
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Unfortunately, I didn't get any chance to put my hands on a real cs-80, so I trust the requests that Max and the other guys are doing.
About the problem with patch changes, since it's not only cs-80 related, I hope Arturia will be able to fix it soon. I'm sure they're working on it, and at the moment (together with the digital zipping noise tweaking some parameters) it's the most annoying issue of an otherwise INCREDIBLY powerful products line :-)
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You're right, this is the most inspiring synth that I've ever came across, and I don't matter at all it's heavy at CPU, it could be heavier the double to me , for such this quality sound....and together with a good programming, it does also a very good TB-303 simulation :wink: !!!
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Thanks for starting this thread, Max.
My suggestion is to add MIDI channel 1-16 to the CC Learn box.
There are over 100 controls on the CS-80v front panel, not counting the Modulation Matrix or Multi Mode pots, which are also controllable. Also, when a new Multi mode voice is made active, it requires new CC assignments. This raises the potential number of CC assignments into the hundreds!
I use a UC-33e and Peavey PC-1600x for CC control, both of which can store multiple layouts using different MIDI channels. Currently, using both boxes there aren't enough controls to cover the basic CS-80V panel. Adding MIDI channel to the Learn function would solve this.
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hm why not?
Anyway, the first thing remains, to me, the vco work and the big bug-artifacts fixing work plus some maquillage to the GUI...Actually the principal controls I like to have under my fingers are the Performance Controllers on all, and with a little patience I 'm gonna have a new ribbon controller with relative zero point which is about to be produced by an Italian manifacturer.
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Hello,
we are glad to see all these requests,
and we hope to implement all of them in the next versions of the CS.
I'll talk with Xavier about these points.
We thought too to improve the display of the CS-80 to a selectable bigger version.
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Thanks to you Fabrice, if you people at Arturia will take note of our suggestions! :wink:
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I thought I'd make my first post on this forum one that I've thought about for a while.
There seems to be a bug with the ADSR implementation, particularly with notes played in fast succession. For example, if you select the Sinusoid preset from the templates section and play a single note repeatedly, the attack varies a significant amount. In the preset it is set to 0 ms (AFAIK) but it can sound anything up to 10 or 20 ms.
Also, when a longer attack has been selected (150+ ms) and you play reasonably quick notes sometimes the attack drops to 0 ms (no change in the slider setting).
Perhaps this could be fixed in the next release?
Also, just a small GUI issue, when you click the preset button the option directly under the mouse is "Delete". This isn't very handy because one accidental double click later and you can say goodbye to the preset bank you were working with. (This has happened to me quite a few times now!)
Thanks
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I already have reported this bug but I'll post it there anyway...
When HPF and LPF are active , the synth won't produce sound when attack time on the Filter envelope is set under 1ms.
This happens in VST mode, @16 bit, 44.1kHz
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What should be best would be to remove the audible pitch return which doesn't exist on the original.
On the original CS-80 how do you get back to concert pitch?
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You mean?
What I tried to say is that once you released the finger from the ribbon on any CS synthesizer you heared a jump to original position that is the key pitch you bended previously, you didn't hear the pitch "climbing" or "descending" to the original pitch.
One example
http://www.bluesynths.com/Sounds/cs60_solo2.mp3
the pitch is bended up then the finger is took off the ribbon...listen , no audible return!
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Ah, now I understand. I just tried it and you're right, releasing the on-screen ribbon causes the pitch to glide home instead of snapping instantly. I didn't notice this before as I use a Kurzweil ExpressionMate ribbon controller. The CS-80V responds properly in this regard using external MIDI control.
Thanks for pointing out the CS-60 mp3. Good CS-80 audio examples as well at bluesynth. The programming is inspiring.
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I don't know if this has been covered before, but there may be a problem with the Chorus and Tremolo implementation.
When Chorus is turned on I hear the chorus effect. But if Delay is also turned on, the chorus effect almost disappears from the main signal. The echos have the full chorus effect, but not the main sound. In other words, If Delay is on Chorus only effects the delayed signal, not the primary signal.
If Delay is on and Tremolo and Chorus are both on, the primary sound completely disappears. Tremolo and Chorus are applied correctly, but only to the output of the delay circuit. The primary signal disappears.
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In an earlier thread I stated that the Initial Pitchbend function on the CS-80V is not quite like the original. I believe the bend should be slower and originate from a slightly lower pitch. My reference for how Initial Pitchbend should sound is Eddie Jobson's CS-80 intro on "Alaska," by U.K. To illustrate, I made three audio examples:
Alaska_UK.mp3 - original recording excerpt
Alaska_CS-80V.mp3 - CS-80V (external reverb added)
Alaska_Oasys-PCI.mp3 - Korg Oasys-PCI (no external processing)
The Oasys-PCI has a pitch ramp function with adjustable depth and time. In this example, I believe the Oasys more closely resembles the behavior of the Initial Pitchbend on the original CS-80.
With regard to the CS-80V, note that I am hitting the descending 5ths with full or almost full velocity and the Initial Pitchbend lever is at maximum.
The three mp3 files are here (http://www.homepage.mac.com/bgarratt) in the "CS-80V test" folder.
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Hi bg
I know that on CS-80V the I-PB function has a deeper range than the original implementation, however I think it's a matter of tweaking the I-PB lever to get the half tone modulation eventually. For what I've heard off the original, the modulation speed is identical, anyway as all analog things , the man who serviced Jobson's CS-80 may have calibrated it to get a slower speed, who knows :wink: ??
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Hi Max,
you're saying we can tweak the I-PB? I'll have to review that. I'm with bg (and that was a very loyal rendition of the Alaska intro, by the way, on the CS80V) about the bend not being deep enough.
I don't believe it was a calibration job done specifically on Jobson's CS-80, because mine has the same amount of depth in the bend. It just doesn't come close to that on the "V".
I also think the tremolo and chorus don't come close to the original either.
They almost have a warp factor, as the tone is being modulated.
Just my O,
ROCS-80
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To be true I noticed that the speed is a bit faster than on the UK file , I meant it was the deep factor which could be tweaked some way . For the Chorus I think that even if not exactly modeled it behaves almost as the original.
As a fact I think you can listen to UK again, ehm I don't remeber if it was "Nevermore" or "mental medication" final , sorry I can't rely on my memories :oops: :oops: :oops: !!
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I noticed that using the ribbon in SUSTAIN I mode does not work correctly. From the CS-80 manual, p. 14:
"When the CS-80 is in SUSTAIN I mode, the ribbon only changes the pitch while you are holding down a key."
In other words, with the sustain slider up and in SUSTAIN I mode:
if you play a key, bend it with the ribbon, release the key, then release the ribbon, the pitch should stay at the bent pitch as the sustain dies away.
[continued from the manual]
"In SUSTAIN II mode, the ribbon wil also change the pitch during the sustain (after you let go of the keys)."
The CS-80V ribbon functions in SUSTAIN II mode only.
Please make the CS-80V ribbon work as it should in SUSTAIN I mode, as it is musically useful. Listen, for example, to the last sustained chord of the section immediately before UK's "Presto and Vivace."
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Thanks bg!
So shall we update the feature/fix request ??
Fixings:
Ringmodulator:
reshape the sine wave,
remove the "PWM" artifact at low MOD rates,
a better tweak to the MOD parameter's behaviour
make the AD levers work in real-time
Filters:
when both HPF and LPF are active you couldn't set filter's Attack time under 1 ms: please fix it!!!
PORT/GLISS slider :
make it work in real time!
Ribbon :
eliminate the glided return after the bending has been done
Set it with "pressed note priority" when SUSTAIN I is active
Sub Osc :
Better tweak the VCA amount control : it clips the thing to death when set at high values!
Global :
less digital stepping
remove crackles and pops when moving sliders
Feature requests :
Freerunning oscillators!
Fine tuning and Transpose for each single VCO per voice card
Redesigned waveforms
That's all ( for the moment :wink: :wink: :twisted: ???? )
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I think we must make a (big) resume of all the next features wanted, in order to put the developers under pressure ! :twisted:
Some of them will take far more cpu, but if all is configurable, and with the increase of computer power, it may not be a problem...
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Hi Fab
I think that my last post featuring fixing and feature request is complete by far, anyway if is there anything that needs a serious re-writing is the ring-modulator section : obviously it has some flavours of the original but at present it doesn't quite sound like it....the sine modulator is somehow too rounded compared to the original so the sound result "dull" a lot ,unlike the original which features a sort of a "nipped" sine, something between a tri and a sine for short.
Also it is the most buggy section in all the synthesizer ! Lots of them are noticeable when interacting with the DEPTH parameter and the related envelope , not to mention my nightmare : an audible artifact at low MOD values which compromise drastically the sound....it has been there since the version 1.0 :( :( :roll:
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Not to sound like a broken record, :roll: but I would only add: have a close listen to the Initial Pitchbend on the original. Vanheckis in an earlier post was right, there should be no attack envelope on the I-PB.
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Hey bg
I am the most broken record in all the forum :P ( the daily statements on ringmodulator tell you nothing ? :wink: :wink: :wink: )
Anyway you're right with the initial pitchbend fixing , it has to feature a less deeper modulation although I can do the semitone modulation by tweaking the lever only a bit .....Fabrice, Xavier?? Is there anyone out there??? :roll:
PS: I think the updates won't see the light of day soon but let's anyway hope the wait will be worth it! :?
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So shall we update the feature/fix request ??
Fixings:
Ringmodulator:
reshape the sine wave,
remove the "PWM" artifact at low MOD rates,
a better tweak to the MOD parameter's behaviour
make the AD levers work in real-time
Filters:
when both HPF and LPF are active you couldn't set filter's Attack time under 1 ms: please fix it!!!
PORT/GLISS slider :
make it work in real time!
Ribbon :
eliminate the glided return after the bending has been done
Set it with "pressed note priority" when SUSTAIN I is active
Sub Osc :
Better tweak the VCA amount control : it clips the thing to death when set at high values!
Global :
less digital stepping
remove crackles and pops when moving sliders
Feature requests :
Freerunning oscillators!
Fine tuning and Transpose for each single VCO per voice card
Redesigned waveforms
In addition:
Fixing to the Initial Pitchbend needed ( to reduce the way too deeper response at high values)
Just a question: what about getting rid of the difference SingleMode - MultiMode ? I think that the synth could easily stay permanently in MultiMode and you can anyway leave the option to open/close the aeration grid for.....an estethical purpose :wink:
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Quote:
So shall we update the feature/fix request ??
Fixings:
Ringmodulator:
reshape the sine wave,
remove the "PWM" artifact at low MOD rates,
a better tweak to the MOD parameter's behaviour
make the AD levers work in real-time
Filters:
when both HPF and LPF are active you couldn't set filter's Attack time under 1 ms: please fix it!!!
PORT/GLISS slider :
make it work in real time!
Ribbon :
eliminate the glided return after the bending has been done
Set it with "pressed note priority" when SUSTAIN I is active
Sub Osc :
Better tweak the VCA amount control : it clips the thing to death when set at high values!
Global :
less digital stepping
remove crackles and pops when moving sliders
Feature requests :
Freerunning oscillators!
Fine tuning and Transpose for each single VCO per voice card
Redesigned waveforms
In addition:
Fixing to the Initial Pitchbend needed ( to reduce the way too deeper response at high values)
Update:
Bugs:
1. Ringmodulator: sometimes the envelope modulation is triggered even with the DEPTH lever set to zero
2. Filters: it seems there's a small amount of Resonance going into the signal path even if the Res sliders are set to zero ( happens both with 12dB/Oct and 24 db/Oct )
Features:
1. More MIDI controls for Arpeggiator ( note #, Aftertouch, Velocity... to destinations Tempo )
2. Individual Arp for each zone !!
3. Set a better Up/Down mode ( or add a classic Roland-style u/d mode )
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I don't know if it's a bug in CS80V or a bug inside mi ears, but:
When I use glissando, seems it works fine if I play high frequencies
but more I go down, more it seems sound like portamento
instead of glissando. I don't know how it sounds on original.
For exemple,if I use a sound very pure like 2 saws and no effects,
then I put maximum glissando, then play the last key on the right, then
first key on the left I feel I could listen a very slow glissando, but when
it starts to play in lower frequencies it seems sound more like a
portamento than a glissando.
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In my thoughts I believe this isn't a bug ,the "stepping" is less audible the more you shorten the lag time and, when glissando is very short it's very close to portamento. Maybe they may tweak the parameter but you have to think you can use it also with close to zero values so to get an unaudible lag.
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When I use glissando, seems it works fine if I play high frequencies but more I go down, more it seems sound like portamento instead of glissando.
I tried your test and I hear exactly what you're describing. But I believe the glissando is working correctly. I think the reason for what we're hearing is that the human ear is more sensitive to changes in high frequencies than in low frequencies. As a test, instead of using glissando mode I manually played a slow chromatic scale and it sounded the same as when using glissando. Indeed, it's harder to perceive pitch changes on the very low notes.
In this case, I think the bug is in our ears. :wink:
Max, I think poropat was talking about pitch, not speed.
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Understood
I made the same experiment that you made , I didn't found a coincidence with portamento, you're right bg, there's nothing wrong in glissando ( of course not talking about the bug in the slider which doesn't work in real time :evil: :evil: :evil: :x )
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In this case, I think the bug is in our ears. :wink:
Max, I think poropat was talking about pitch, not speed.
Thanks bg, you are right, but when I do glissando with my
fingers in low notes, I could perceive it more than glissando
because sound is retriggered. So anyway, I think the original
works like this too.
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1. Free running Oscillator I have the same opinoin. It's a big key to poly analog's real fascination.
2. please slow down the speed of stereo cooling fans. It's too fast and looks not heavily.
Make it smooth when starting or stopping fans, following the law of inertia. not a joke.
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1. Free running Oscillator I have the same opinoin. It's a big key to poly analog's real fascination.
Yes , it is fundamental, together with the detunable voice cards
2. please slow down the speed of stereo cooling fans. It's too fast and looks not heavily.
Make it smooth when starting or stopping fans, following the law of inertia. not a joke
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Question: do we really need the fans on the UI ? The original CS-80 didn't feature any fan and the inner cooling problem was one of the reasons why the thing was so weak on the tuning side ( and why each voice card drifted at different rates :evil: :evil: :evil: !!! )
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Question: do we really need the fans on the UI ? The original CS-80 didn't feature any fan and the inner cooling problem was one of the reasons why the thing was so weak on the tuning side ( and why each voice card drifted at different rates :evil: :evil: :evil: !!! )
...Maybe it's because of fans, cooling system become better
in CS80V then, by the way sometime sound is not close to
the original... :mrgreen:
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...Maybe it's because of fans, cooling system become better
in CS80V then, by the way sometime sound is not close to
the original...
And it's because of the fans that the thing is so annoingly well in tune :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Please add a controllable "oscillator slop" to the feature list. The original CS-80 was rarely perfectly in tune, and there should be some randomness added to the oscillators.
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Save a little preayer for it :wink: :wink: :wink: !!