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Harware Legacy versions => Origin => Topic started by: GregNouveau on October 08, 2014, 10:20:35 am

Title: Encoders used?
Post by: GregNouveau on October 08, 2014, 10:20:35 am
Hi all!

I have been a happy user of the V-Collection for ages now: it is my go-to analog solution when I start a track!

I've been researching buying an Origin Keyboard recently, and obviously have stumbled upon the reliability / customer service issues.....

This has caused me some concern about buying one: I don't want to be left with a 2k doorstop....and tbh, I just cannot be arsed with dealing with intermittent problems in the studio.....

......its taken a LONG time to get myself a setup that is (almost!) 100% reliable.... ;-)

So..can anyone shed light on EXACTLY what goes wrong with the encoders?
Is it not possible to replace them with a quality item, repair the actual encoders, or something along these lines?

I am a decent electronics / mechanical engineer, and have repaired stuff you wouldn't believe in my time.....

I'm sure a cheap Chinese PCB cannot present insurmountable issues...? ;-)

..as long as the firmware is ok, that is..?

Any long standing issues?

Has anyone had one apart?  What type are the encoders.....

Any info appreciated: manufacturers part numbers of the encoders would be a good start....

G.
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: DrJustice on October 09, 2014, 03:05:42 am
Our esteemed member hermitnerd has identified the Big Knob encoder here (http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=5367.msg114732#msg114732) (a Bourns PEC16-4220F-S0024).

The encoders can of course be replaced, fixed or even upgraded if you can find a similarly specced item with the same mechanical dimensions. I've had my Origin apart, but didn't take note of the encoders (was looking to replace the fan with something a bit more quiet - any tips there, folks?). I know hermitnerd is about to replace the Big Knob encoder - if you're reading this, hermitnerd, perhaps you can check which types the other encoders are?

I'd like to get some replacement encoders myself, as an "insurance"... The LCD screen and associated driver circuitry is also something I'd like to be able to replace if it goes south. I reckon the rest of it has the potential for lasting a long time.
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: GregNouveau on October 09, 2014, 09:16:36 am
That's useful info....

Are the other encoders the same part number?
I'm assuming that its the big knob takes the hammering, mainly, hence it failing?

I'm staggered that such a high-use part is so flimsy, especially as it has such a large mass knob attached to it.!?

These are 89p on Farnell! I was expecting it to be a far more robust part....

iirc, the Roland alpha wheel parts are much more substantial.....?


Is the screen interface a standard one: I notice future screen replacement has been mentioned, too...
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: DrJustice on October 09, 2014, 04:22:11 pm
I would think that the other encoders are also Bourns PEC16 series (they come with and without detents and push switch) - that would make sense from a design and logistics standpoint (waiting for hermitnerd to report...  :P). The PEC16 series is the most durable mechanical encoder from Bourns with a rating of 200k revolutions minimum. It would've be nice with optical encoders, at least for the big knob, but they cost quite a bit more...

I've had the Alps encoders on my Roland JD-990 "disintegrate" - i.e. they also use mechanical encoders, no more sturdy than the Bourns in the Origin (they might have been Alps EC12 series IIRC, rated at far less revolutions than the ones in the Origin big knob). 
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: JacksonP on October 09, 2014, 05:35:31 pm
I think it's important to point out that replacing encoders isn't easy task with Origin. I remember well having many encoder issues with my first Origin. I brought my unit to local repairer which is trusted by companies like Roland, Yamaha or Clavia. And this repairer has fixed many of my synths over the years. With my Origin they could not do anything at that time.

I really hope that Arturia will give us information which is needed when repairing Origin. It's about identfying the correct replacement parts but also instructions how to do these actions. This is very important because Origin has obvious typical malfunctions including big knob, encoder and perhaps LCD problems.

Personally I already got some information from them about big knob and LCD. Funny thing is that my LCD has been very healthy since then. So at the moment I am not in hurry. Big knob issue is very annoying but I think I can still tolerate it little longer. In future I think I'll try to fix both LCD and big knob with same repair. Also, I am very curious how it goes with Hermitnerd's brave project.  ;)
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: rcmusic on October 09, 2014, 06:28:34 pm
I am very curious how it goes with Hermitnerd's brave project.  ;)

He has just sorldered his brain into Origin. Philippe is working on a new OS, the main feature will be Hermitnerd's randomizer function so we can have all the patches that are floating in his head ! ;-)

Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: GregNouveau on October 10, 2014, 12:52:25 pm
Good info..!

I was thinking of basically using an optical encoder on the "big"? It seems like that is the one that takes the hammering, especially as it is also a switch..?!  :o

Is the actual "knob" part of the encoder well supported? ie: if you try and bend the shaft from side to side, does it move (much)..?

Maybe replacing the knob itself with a type that rotates within the panel hole, rather than hanging off the shaft, and replacing the 89p encoder with a new one, would offer a much longer-term solution?

As I say, I don't actually have an Origin (yet!)..so I don't know the full story.....

But I'm already drafting up something in Solidworks as a preliminary solution, maybe...... ;-)
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: hermitnerd on October 29, 2014, 03:39:36 pm
I am very curious how it goes with Hermitnerd's brave project.  ;)

He has just sorldered his brain into Origin. Philippe is working on a new OS, the main feature will be Hermitnerd's randomizer function so we can have all the patches that are floating in his head ! ;-)

  ;D
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: hermitnerd on December 17, 2014, 04:30:10 am

This has been a busy year. New house, new dog (I can't believe how much time dogs require). But I am still committed to Origin. I even got a Bowen Solaris and sold it again because I have been too spoiled by having the Origin and I definitely don't have enough time to invest in both synths.

My Origin module has been disassembled now since August. I would say the most difficult thing of all is the LCD ribbon connector. Getting it reconnected is a challenge. Maybe there is a trick I don't know about. Hopefully over Christmas break I will have more time to try to get it back in.
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: DrJustice on December 17, 2014, 11:40:35 am
^ Is it inserting the ribbon connector in the socket that's the problem? Some sockets have a pull-out section to relieve pressure and lock down the cable, which may not be immediately obvious. Then again, I have the feeling you'd know about that :)

So, on to the real reason for posting here; the types of encoders used. You previously posted here (http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=5367.msg114732#msg114732) that the service dept. specifies Bourns PEC16-4220F-S0024 for the big knob. Reading the recently released service docs, the schematics specify an EC162101E1B-HA1-24P5-FB200B120 which seems to be a Chinese knock-off part. Which part is actually in the Origin (maybe the front panel will have to come off to see it...)? If it's the non Bourns part, perhaps that would mean that reliability would be increased by replacing that with the genuine Bourns article? Perhaps Philippe would care to comment on that?
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: Philippe on December 17, 2014, 02:37:29 pm
Not 100% sure. I think that factory built boards use the Chinese component, while repaired boards use the bourns component.
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: hermitnerd on January 27, 2015, 06:43:51 pm
Just a quick update, I have not yet replaced the encoder potentiometer, but did completely dis-assemble and re-assemble the Origin module successfully, including removing the encoder board. Had to use a couple of tricks to get the LCD  ribbon and power cable threaded back to the LCD/encoder board. I took some pictures which I can attach. This was sort of a "practice run"  :)

I also sprayed contact cleaner on the encoder (which you can do without opening the Origin, just pull off the big plastic knob, spray at the base of the potentiometer, and turn it several times while pressing it down, then turn it several times will not pressed down). It seemed to  get rid of the jitter issue for a couple of days but then I think the jitter came back, albeit less this time. I will experiment a little more with the contact spray solution, and if it is only temporary I will dive back in and actually replace the potentiometer with the Bourns part.

Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: JavaLaurence on February 12, 2015, 08:38:46 pm
Hi Originals, (sorry, couldn't resist)

I just got an Origin second hand, traveled all the way from Italy to Belgium... and just a few days after unpacking, discovered that the 2nd Sequencer pot is malfunctioning. Rotating the pot in any direction causes an +1 increment.. so turning anti-clockwise just increments the note until it hits the ceiling value, and then the note is stuck.

Has anyone encountered such behaviour before? Given that the pot produces some input to the logic, it's not 100% dead.. but this turning invariance is weird, no?

And question to experienced Origin users: is there any other way to increment/decrement the step value, apart from using a knob?
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: hermitnerd on February 12, 2015, 10:03:33 pm
Hi Originals, (sorry, couldn't resist)

I just got an Origin second hand, traveled all the way from Italy to Belgium... and just a few days after unpacking, discovered that the 2nd Sequencer pot is malfunctioning. Rotating the pot in any direction causes an +1 increment.. so turning anti-clockwise just increments the note until it hits the ceiling value, and then the note is stuck.

Has anyone encountered such behaviour before? Given that the pot produces some input to the logic, it's not 100% dead.. but this turning invariance is weird, no?

And question to experienced Origin users: is there any other way to increment/decrement the step value, apart from using a knob?

Congrats on your new Origin. The knobs are the only way to increment/decrement the sequence step value. Note however that there are two different modes each of the 3 sequencers in a program has:  Quantized and Not Quantized

The first thing I would try is contact cleaner (see attached pics). Pull the grey knob off, spray the cleaner at the base using the long thin tube that usually comes with contact cleaners, and then twist the knob back and forth several times.
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: fellersmtc on February 17, 2015, 09:23:41 pm
HI all,

I successfully replaced the rotary encoder with the encoder identified earlier (PEC16-4220F-S0024).  It was a lot of disassembly, reassembly, but not too hard.  Be sure you know how to remove and replace thru-hole components (hint, get a solder sucker).  Putting it back together was a bit of a challenge because the encoders had to align just right with the case, or some of the encoders will rub against the case hole.  A little finagling should do it though.  Works great now. 

Better than shipping your Origin off to Europe (unless you live in Europe).  I did this, and they kept it for over a year, finally sending it back to me un-repaired.  That's when I took it upon myself to repair it myself.
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: JavaLaurence on February 22, 2015, 02:28:08 pm
They kept it for a year, then sent it back without the repair ?? Eh??

Are they going totally mad out there ?

What excuse did they give?

I've got a crappy encoder too, and need to decide how exactly to tackle the repair..
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: hermitnerd on February 25, 2015, 07:26:00 pm

I've got a crappy encoder too, and need to decide how exactly to tackle the repair..

Hi JavaLaurence, check out this post, a user was apparently able to fix their sequencer encoder:
http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=84071.msg117678
Title: Re: Encoders used?
Post by: paulshillito on April 08, 2016, 08:34:52 pm
A complete video on how to replace the faulty encoders on the Aurtuia Origin Desktop is here http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=87283.0  (http://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=87283.0) in the tech section of the forum and on youtube here  https://youtu.be/Gb4ko72mViM (https://youtu.be/Gb4ko72mViM)