Arturia Forums
DRUMS => Spark => Spark Users Community => Topic started by: martrox on May 01, 2014, 10:16:48 am
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Does anyone know if Spark 2 software will work with the original Spark hardware?
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Yes, it should. It even has the original controller skin under options.
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Does anyone know if Spark 2 software will work with the original Spark hardware?
Yes, I have the original Spark hardware and it works
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Yes, it works.
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It doesn't, not as you see the hardware.
They have removed the Instrument/kit function, choosing to ask you to use Shift 7 to get to the library, then you are able to use the scroll/log wheel. Even then, you then have 4 further sub menus that the wheel needs to be able to control. Unsuccessfully in my testing
The hardware will only truly work on release 1.7.2
Stu
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Stuart you are exaggerating a bit.
The 4 submenus were already here in 1.7.2, if they are not switchable with the Spark hardware that's a bug (I have to double check this).
All the other features are working with Spark hardware.
Kevin
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It's workflow Kevin
And removing that function has broken the workflow. If you have a button on a piece of hardware that says "Press here to activate *an example* "
You then remove that functionality with a software update, you are effectively killing off the hardware use with Spark. What happens when you add new SW features, are you going to further remove hardware functions?
My car has a steering wheel, if I upgrade something on my car, I don't expect that upgrade to remove functionality of my steering wheel and force me to engage the cigarette lighter before I'm able to use the steering wheel.
In order to play live I cannot upgrade to Spark 2 as I no longer have *direct* access to my kits. I don't have time to switch another button before I jog through my kits. I'm not saying that using Shift 7 to get to the library is a bad thing, it's a nice shortcut to have.
I would also expect other shortcuts in order to get through the 4 sub menus, but you're running out of keys as it is.
This would work far better if you were to have a preference that specified the sub menu that the library switches to. Currently, when i hit Shift 7 on my HW, the library will go to the last sub menu page I was on, presuming I make the change first, on start up it always defaults to instruments, meaning I have to dig around in the software to alter it's state. I can now choose the kits I want to show and hide (which is a nice feature) but to be able to specify the sub menu the library lands on is imperative if you are going to run with removing that direct access to the kits.
Stu
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Confirmed & just submitted the bug --
On the original CDM hardware, clicking the CDM jog dial does not directly open the Instrument Library or Kit Library.
Clicking and holding the dial for 1 second does not seem to change the highlight on the GUI indicating which library will open.
The SparkLE hardware unit opens the intended library correctly.
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...Oh, THEN I stumbled onto this thread:
http://www.arturia.com/evolution/smf/index.php?topic=82256.15
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Stuart you are exaggerating a bit.
The 4 submenus were already here in 1.7.2, if they are not switchable with the Spark hardware that's a bug (I have to double check this).
All the other features are working with Spark hardware.
Kevin
Hi Kevin
Yes they were, correct. They were broken then. I wanted to see if V2 had corrected it. Unfortunately.....
Stu
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Hello Kevin
Did you manage to test this?
Thanks
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Hi Stu,
sorry this has not been fixed in beta1.
I will add this to the todo list for beta2
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Thanks
Can you confirm the jog wheel functionality is only accessible via Shift 7? And if this is the case, can we see a preference for the specific tab it lands on? What i'd like to see, if there is absolutely no way to have direct access to these tabs via the jog wheel; is a preference that assures the saved state of the 4 sub menus. So when I hit Shift 7, I know that i'm always going to land on Projects, or Kits, or whatever I've set. Plus, with the nice way that the left panel can show and hide, we can have direct access to the kits, projects and instruments we want.
Stu
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Normally when you open the Library tab it should always open in the last tab you were.
There might be some case where it does not (especially after closing/reopening GUI) but these are bugs and will be fixed (hopefully soon :)).
Kevin
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Default is Instruments when the app is shut down and restarted. Could this be a preference?
Default Library Tab: (Drop down that includes Project, Instrument, Kit and Disk)
This would mean that live workflow would be far slicker. I would like to go:
Shift 7 > jog wheel to flick through desired items
Instead of
Shift 7 > Jog wheel to choose tab > jog wheel to flick through desired items
What do you think?
Stu
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The last used tab should be saved and recalled each time you open the GUI or launch the application.
This will be fixed.
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Perfect!
So that saves the entire window, the left hand browser etc
Stu
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Yes
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Great news Kevin! Thanks.
One more thing:)... How is it then possible to move between, say Project and the Kit tab once you have gone into the library via Shift 7? Using the shift key activates the side bar so that key can't be used. What other keys are there to activate moving between sub menus n the library tab?
This is why i believe that direct access via the wheel was a better solution. Click the wheel opens the Library, confirm the tab you want via another click,(This turns into a double click at speed. ) then scroll to the item. The shift 7 could then be there to go back to the 'top' of the library because either way, there is no way to go back a step when going through the library... But we'll agree to disagree :)
Stu
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Great news Kevin! Thanks.
One more thing:)... How is it then possible to move between, say Project and the Kit tab once you have gone into the library via Shift 7? Using the shift key activates the side bar so that key can't be used. What other keys are there to activate moving between sub menus n the library tab?
This should be done by clicking one second on the wheel then scrolling it.
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This should be done by clicking one second on the wheel then scrolling it.
Ok, so all of this is to be in the next update?
Stu
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This should be done by clicking one second on the wheel then scrolling it.
Because that sort of works now but is very intermittent
Stu
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HI Kevin, Or perhaps adding the tabbed item to the list when scrolling?
So you have your list of kits and the top item would be either Projects, Kits, Instruments and Disk. When you are in Project, a list of your projects and also Projects, Kits, Instruments and Disk as the top item. Meaning, when you are at the top, scrolling would differ the menus, not the item under it.
This also means, no accidental opening of projects or kits when using the 1 sec rule
Stu
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good point.
have to discuss this with seb
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Great!
Thanks Kevin. Add me onto the beta list if that's ok?
Stuart
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no pb
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stuart you are funny loved what you said about pressing a ciggarette lighter to start the car :) but ive noticed the jog wheel doesnt work hope they fix this soon
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I'm here all week :)
Yes, the Spark 2 workflow is being looked at, probably as we speak so updates will follow. Currently the new beta does use the jog wheel but only once Shift 7 is pressed.
Shift 7 --> gets you to Library and will remain on the latest saved state.
click and hold jog wheel for about 2 seconds, this will highlight sub menus, then turn to choose.
Shift 1 --> gets you back to main screen
Above is a mixture of hardware and software workflow.
Hope that helps
Thanks, Stuart
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This should be done by clicking one second on the wheel then scrolling it.
Because that sort of works now but is very intermittent
Stu
From what I experienced with the jogwheel (at least since v1.7 and still there with v2.0.1beta363), and would explain the intermittent behaviour :
1/ To navigate in page 7 (library) submenus (Project/Kits/Inst./Disk)
actual behavior => hold wheel click for "1 sec" => then turn left/right to navigate while holding the jogwheel (then we can release the wheel and still navigate thru the tabs but ONLY after turning left/right first) => click to validate the tab
2 issues :
* the jogwheel is quite sensitive so if user turns the jog BEFORE the end of "1 sec" timer => (tab select is aborted) => releasing the wheel -> load the selected project/kit/inst (unwanted behavior).
* if user hold the wheel for "1 sec" but release it without turning left/right while holding the wheel -> do nothing (user thinks it doesn't work)
mod suggestions :
a/ (from library page) => click+hold wheel click (no timer) => (still holding the wheel click) turn left/right to navigate thru the tabs => release -> validate the tab
or
b/ (from library page) => hold select to navigate thru both favorites AND tabs
(close to Stuart's post 22 suggestion)
or
c/ (from library page) => hold select + click on the jogwheel to navigate thru the Tabs
(in this case, when you hold Select + 7 -> go to library tab / still hold select + click on jogwheel -> navigate thru the tabs)
or
d/ when library page opens (shift+7 or 1st click on wheel) -> navigate thru tabs / 2nd click -> validate tab and navigate thru the presets
(in this case, double click -> directly navigate thru the presets of the last selected tab = Stuart's post 18 suggestion)
So in any ways, get rid of this 1 sec timer...
2/ +1 for the "click on jogwheel" (from any page) -> go to page 7 (library), like in Spark v1.x
3/ I would prefer having a validate pop menu when loading (from library page) or saving (with select+9) a project/kit/instrument to prevent accidental load or save. If some users don't like this behavior, this could be an option in Preferences (Confirm before load/save : Yes/No + Default confirm answer : Yes / No).
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All this holding for 1 sec then and scrolling malarky is subjective. Being very sensitive, a hold could be seen as a push and visa versa, but saying all this, there still is not exit strategy.
I think it's been said a free times that direct access is the way forward, yes, lets keep the shift 7 for conformity thats all fine. but once you're in Library, how do you get out?
Once you're into the library it is assumed that you make a selection, you then return back to the main window. What if you want to exit the menu without choosing an instrument? You can't...
There are two 'clear' button (Shift -Mute, Solo) but a simple 'cancel' is required on the hardware. For software it's a case of just hitting 'Esc'
Personally i think there should be no holding down of the wheel at all, it's too idiosyncratic and rife for mistakes. A simple click of the wheel should get you to the library, saved in the last state you left it in. The wheel then should scroll through the entire list but not indefinitely scroll. The sub menus should be included in the scroll so when one of the menus is highlight, you are able to choose from of the sub menus list (click to confirm).
There should also be a 'cancel or back' item in list so that you can exit if needed.
All this should also be reported on the hardware. Reporting change is the single most important thing when controlling software.
This may be complicated to code, but ultimately, extremely simple to use, which is of course the idea scenario.
Thanks, Stuart
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All this holding for 1 sec then and scrolling malarky is subjective. Being very sensitive, a hold could be seen as a push and visa versa, but saying all this, there still is not exit strategy.
I think it's been said a free times that direct access is the way forward, yes, lets keep the shift 7 for conformity thats all fine. but once you're in Library, how do you get out?
select+1 (or select + any number) wherever you want to go. Personally, I like to stay in the library page to test different project/kits/inst. CDM controller is still fully working in the library page so I can make some try, use transport, bank, pattern, steps, pads, knobs from the controller. No need to get back to the main page. And if you do want, just hit select+ ' 1 '.
Once you're into the library it is assumed that you make a selection, you then return back to the main window. What if you want to exit the menu without choosing an instrument? You can't...
Of course you can : select+1 .
With v1.7, project/kits/instrument page were a floating windows, not anymore with Spark 2...
There are two 'clear' button (Shift -Mute, Solo) but a simple 'cancel' is required on the hardware. For software it's a case of just hitting 'Esc'
I agree, 'esc' button was missing in v1.7. But now, it is obvious.
(I asked for a confirm pop-up window as an additional feature to prevent mistakes ; this could eventually be a preference to enable/disable this confirm window).
Personally i think there should be no holding down of the wheel at all, it's too idiosyncratic and rife for mistakes.
I never liked the "holding down" feature too. It is an heritage of the inital jogwheel behavior (before v1.5 as I recall) : there were no floating Project/Kit/Inst. window at all. Only the jogwheel and the LCD were needed to select instrument or kits (no project load option).
A simple click of the wheel should get you to the library, saved in the last state you left it in.
I agree . Re-read my post -> I tried to decompose step-by-step the wheel behavior (with 4 proposals).
I wrote "from the library page" meaning library page is the starting point of the description.
I didn't impose any specific way to go to this page : this can be "select+7", click on the GUI, or click on the jogwheel (unfortunately, not available at this moment).
The wheel then should scroll through the entire list but not indefinitely scroll. The sub menus should be included in the scroll so when one of the menus is highlight, you are able to choose from of the sub menus list (click to confirm).
Why not. I made a proposal to include the tabs in the favorite scroll, but your proposal is fine too.
There should also be a 'cancel or back' item in list so that you can exit if needed.
Once again, forget the old Floating project window. Just use the actual shortcuts (select+page nb) is fine to me. There is no more exit notion anymore : the Library page is one page amongst 8, no more not less.
All this should also be reported on the hardware. Reporting change is the single most important thing when controlling software.
I agree. Project/Kit/inst/disk should show up on the LCD display. For the page status, maybe highlighting the step number when holding select could reflect the active page of the GUI :
- Hold select :
if GUI is on the Main page : ' 1 ' is highlighted
if GUI is on the Sequencer page : ' 2 ' is highlighted
... etc ...
if GUI is on the Library page : ' 7 ' is highlighted
if GUI is on the Preferences page : ' 8 ' is highlighted
(like the mode 13 and 16)
Maybe this is not the right thread to discuss about that, but it is quite CDM+Spark2 specific...
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Of course you can : select+1 .
With v1.7, project/kits/instrument page were a floating windows, not anymore with Spark 2...
There's a bug in Beta3 that means Select - 1 doesn't work at all. The previous beta was ok but try using select-1 whilst in a sub menu... Once you move around the sub menus and are scrolling through items, Select-1 is no longer an option.
I agree, 'esc' button was missing in v1.7. But now, it is obvious.
(I asked for a confirm pop-up window as an additional feature to prevent mistakes ; this could eventually be a preference to enable/disable this confirm window).
'Esc' as in the Esc key on your keyboard. The workflow here needs to split between hardware and software, then work in both. Most of this is just a reporting issue and can be dealt with quite easily.
The wheel then should scroll through the entire list but not indefinitely scroll. The sub menus should be included in the scroll so when one of the menus is highlight, you are able to choose from of the sub menus list (click to confirm).Why not. I made a proposal to include the tabs in the favorite scroll, but your proposal is fine too.
indefinitely scrolling is confusing, a list has a top and a bottom. We start at the top and finish at the bottom. Gives users boundaries. I don't see that holding the wheel is at all necessary, scroll to the top then along for sub menus, confirm then scroll for item. It's very fluid, same as I mentioned a while back in my original reply to Kevin.
There should also be a 'cancel or back' item in list so that you can exit if needed. Once again, forget the old Floating project window. Just use the actual shortcuts (select+page nb) is fine to me. There is no more exit notion anymore : the Library page is one page amongst 8, no more not less.
Whilst in the sub menus a cancel button would be useful when you already have your hand on the wheel. Remember, try doing this without looking at the software - this is what this is all about. Also remember a lot of people using this live, It's always better to try and give a one handed/fingered responses where possible. The inclusion of select-number means a 2 handed gesture where 1 would suffice.
I agree. Project/Kit/inst/disk should show up on the LCD display. For the page status, maybe highlighting the step number when holding select could reflect the active page of the GUI :
- Hold select :
if GUI is on the Main page : ' 1 ' is highlighted
if GUI is on the Sequencer page : ' 2 ' is highlighted
... etc ...
if GUI is on the Library page : ' 7 ' is highlighted
if GUI is on the Preferences page : ' 8 ' is highlighted
(like the mode 13 and 16)
This needs to kept very simple IMO. Simple text for a limited time on the LCD panel to tell you where you have landed, the change reports every time you change menus. A user will remember where they are, there's no requirement for extra shift controls to remind you of a menu you opened 1 seconds previous. Think of the sub menus as items in the list, say like a drum pad would look. So, you'd click on that as you would an instrument. instead of opening a kit, it would open the new menu which would be reported simply as 'Disk' or 'Kit' or wherever you'd landed on.
if GUI is on the Main page : ' 1 ' is highlighted
if GUI is on the Sequencer page : ' 2 ' is highlighted
Far too technical and too confusing. More numbers to remember. Beside, you might think you've inserted a hat on beat 2 or whatever. What's wrong with using plain old English? There's an LCD panel, lets use it :)
Thanks, Stuart