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Hardware Instruments => MatrixBrute => MatrixBrute - Technical Issues => Topic started by: andretoscano on March 18, 2020, 06:46:45 pm

Title: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: andretoscano on March 18, 2020, 06:46:45 pm
Hi!
Modular synth complete beginner here (not new to synths, though).

So....

1. The CV Pitch Out sends pitch/frequency information of that specific VCO (VCO1, for example);

2. The Gate controls when that pitch information is sent (Gate open, or key pressed) or not (Gate closed, key unpressed);

3. LFO1 AMT & VCA sends CV to allow us to use the internal LFO and VCA as modulators for external modules;

4. What exactly does the Ultra, PW & Metal output?

I suspect it's the "raw" waves, before they get mixed and sent to the filters internally.

But what are those for exactly?

Can that be used as control signals, like if they were LFO's and VCA's, and sent to a modulation input somewhere? (won't they be a little too fast (high frequency) for that?)

Or will they output an audio signal that can be plugged to any module that has an audio input (so we would would hear a Saw, Pulse or Triangle wherever we plug those outputs?)

The manual is not very specific when it comes to these sections.

Thanks!
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: endreola on March 18, 2020, 07:05:16 pm
Should be just CV voltages, no audio. You may want to reference the user manual, it lists the following information:

Control Voltages I/O
————————————
VCO1 Pitch 0 - 10V
VCO1 Ultra Saw +/- 5V
VCO1 Pulse Width +/- 5V
VCO1 Metalizer +/- 5V
VCO2 Pitch 0 - 10V
VCO2 Ultra Saw +/- 5V
VCO2 Pulse Width +/- 5V
VCO2 Metalizer +/- 5V
Steiner Cutoff 0 - 10V
Ladder Cutoff 0 - 10V
LFO 1 amount 0 - 10V
VCA 0 - 10V
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: guyaguy on March 18, 2020, 07:31:49 pm

4. What exactly does the Ultra, PW & Metal output?

I suspect it's the "raw" waves, before they get mixed and sent to the filters internally.

To clarify these points, it’s the aggregated CV that’s aimed at those destinations. For example if you have an envelope and an LFO aimed at the Metallizer you get a sum of both from the CV out.
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: andretoscano on March 18, 2020, 08:19:36 pm
Should be just CV voltages, no audio. You may want to reference the user manual, it lists the following information:

Control Voltages I/O
————————————
VCO1 Pitch 0 - 10V
VCO1 Ultra Saw +/- 5V
VCO1 Pulse Width +/- 5V
VCO1 Metalizer +/- 5V
VCO2 Pitch 0 - 10V
VCO2 Ultra Saw +/- 5V
VCO2 Pulse Width +/- 5V
VCO2 Metalizer +/- 5V
Steiner Cutoff 0 - 10V
Ladder Cutoff 0 - 10V
LFO 1 amount 0 - 10V
VCA 0 - 10V

Thanks!
I saw that info on the manual.
I understand the ranges (positive 0-to-10V for pitch, filters and VCA, as they are unipolar voltages that just "describe" a specific point or position on that scale; and +/- for other CV's that have positive and negative cycles).
That's fine.

What I don't get is what the PW/Ultra/Metal CV outputs are outputting exactly... I understand it's control voltages that can oscillate between +/- 5V, but... what control voltages exactly are those?
Which frequency are they being outputted (are they varying with VCO frequency)?
How are they supposed to be used?
Does that mean the Metal knob (example) turned all the way to the right is outputting +/-5V, and 0V if turned all the way to the left?

Sorry... I'm really beginning with this stuff, trying to learn it right, and I'd just like to know precisely what's happening in the "plumbings"! :-)


Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: andretoscano on March 18, 2020, 08:31:56 pm

4. What exactly does the Ultra, PW & Metal output?

I suspect it's the "raw" waves, before they get mixed and sent to the filters internally.

To clarify these points, it’s the aggregated CV that’s aimed at those destinations. For example if you have an envelope and an LFO aimed at the Metallizer you get a sum of both from the CV out.

Thanks!
It's starting to make sense to me...

So, do you mean that those PW/Ultra/Metal CV Outs can function essentially just as outputs/passthrough's for whatever modulation we throw into them internally?
Say (example) I send LFO1 to modulate the VCO Metal. If I then plug CV Metal Out to something, will I get that modulation (or the sum of whatever is thrown at it at that instant)?

Does that mean that (in that specific situation) the Metal knob would work as an attenuator of some kind?

Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: guyaguy on March 18, 2020, 09:05:16 pm

Thanks!
It's starting to make sense to me...

So, do you mean that those PW/Ultra/Metal CV Outs can function essentially just as outputs/passthrough's for whatever modulation we throw into them internally?
Say (example) I send LFO1 to modulate the VCO Metal. If I then plug CV Metal Out to something, will I get that modulation (or the sum of whatever is thrown at it at that instant)?

Yes and yes. Additionally if you route modulation to something that is not being used you can patch that modulation to something that is! For example if you aren't using the triangle of a VCO you can route modulation to the Metallizer and won't hear it because you have the volume of the triangle off. But you can patch that modulation to something else--external devices, other internal parameters, etc.

Does that mean that (in that specific situation) the Metal knob would work as an attenuator of some kind?
Kind of but only for the initial amount. Modulation levels are set in the matrix.

Let's say you have the the triangle on at full volume and Metallizer down to 0. Routing an envelope to the Metallizer will increase the amount by the percentage set in the modulation matrix. So setting it at 50% rather than 100% is essentially attenuating the modulation by half. Then you can route the LFO at 17% for example. But if you set the Metallizer knob at 60% and the envelope at 50% the voltage will "max out" at 100% when trying to go above that. Of course you can also set your mod amounts to negative amounts, e.g. envelope at 50% and LFO at -60%.
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: andretoscano on March 18, 2020, 09:07:22 pm
I got it now!

Any internal modulations in the matrix - or sum of modulations, if more than one - that are sent to any of those destinations (Ultra, PW and Metal) not only modulate those functions accordingly (if they are in use, by the VCO's), but that modulation is also passed-through to the CV outputs unchanged (just checked it).

So, the knobs don't actually do anything to the modulation amount that comes out. They're there to assist in the internal sound sculpting of the VCO's.
But any modulation also sent there passes through unchanged (might have to be attenuated on the other end, but that's the outside world's problem...)

This is pretty cool!

They could have made it easier and named them Ultra/Mod1 Out, PW/Mod2 Out, Metal/Mod3 Out... but well... I'm just glad this works.

Many thanks, guys!
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: guyaguy on March 18, 2020, 09:35:49 pm
I got it now!

Any internal modulations in the matrix - or sum of modulations, if more than one - that are sent to any of those destinations (Ultra, PW and Metal) not only modulate those functions accordingly (if they are in use, by the VCO's), but that modulation is also passed-through to the CV outputs unchanged (just checked it).

So, the knobs don't actually do anything to the modulation amount that comes out. They're there to assist in the internal sound sculpting of the VCO's.
But any modulation also sent there passes through unchanged (might have to be attenuated on the other end, but that's the outside world's problem...)

This is pretty cool!

They could have made it easier and named them Ultra/Mod1 Out, PW/Mod2 Out, Metal/Mod3 Out... but well... I'm just glad this works.

Many thanks, guys!
Yup it's a bit confusing but smart because it allows more modulation on each output, unlike something like Mother 32 (not that there's anything wrong with the M32!). Normally on hardwired synths like that there's LFO1 out, LFO2 out, EG1 out, etc. But this lets you get a lot more sources, a mixer, and attenuators so each jack can provide more flexibility!
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: andretoscano on March 18, 2020, 09:49:39 pm

Quote
Let's say you have the the triangle on at full volume and Metallizer down to 0. Routing an envelope to the Metallizer will increase the amount by the percentage set in the modulation matrix. So setting it at 50% rather than 100% is essentially attenuating the modulation by half. Then you can route the LFO at 17% for example. But if you set the Metallizer knob at 60% and the envelope at 50% the voltage will "max out" at 100% when trying to go above that. Of course you can also set your mod amounts to negative amounts, e.g. envelope at 50% and LFO at -60%.

This part took me a little while longer to get, but I think I understood it.

With your example of the main triangle wave knob turned up (i.e. being used to create sound at that VCO) then the combined modulation at the Metal output would (potentially) max out as the modulations combine there and we need to be careful with the % amounts. Hence negative voltages should be used in that case, and it's only a matter of having some kind of inverter at the receiving end (if it's deemed necessary).

I'm slowly getting there.

Thanks!
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: guyaguy on March 18, 2020, 11:20:02 pm

Quote
Let's say you have the the triangle on at full volume and Metallizer down to 0. Routing an envelope to the Metallizer will increase the amount by the percentage set in the modulation matrix. So setting it at 50% rather than 100% is essentially attenuating the modulation by half. Then you can route the LFO at 17% for example. But if you set the Metallizer knob at 60% and the envelope at 50% the voltage will "max out" at 100% when trying to go above that. Of course you can also set your mod amounts to negative amounts, e.g. envelope at 50% and LFO at -60%.

This part took me a little while longer to get, but I think I understood it.

With your example of the main triangle wave knob turned up (i.e. being used to create sound at that VCO) then the combined modulation at the Metal output would (potentially) max out as the modulations combine there and we need to be careful with the % amounts. Hence negative voltages should be used in that case, and it's only a matter of having some kind of inverter at the receiving end (if it's deemed necessary).

I'm slowly getting there.

Thanks!
Take your time; there's a lot to explore!

Not to overload you but it might also be worth knowing that the CV outs extend past the standard max values for some parameters. So if you turn the Metallizer all the way up you'd think that's the maximum possible value. But if you max the Metallizer amount, patch the Metallizer out to the Metallizer in, and route Aftertouch to the Metallizer you'll hear the amount go past the knob value when you play a note and apply pressure!
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: andretoscano on March 19, 2020, 11:04:33 am
Quote

Take your time; there's a lot to explore!

Not to overload you but it might also be worth knowing that the CV outs extend past the standard max values for some parameters. So if you turn the Metallizer all the way up you'd think that's the maximum possible value. But if you max the Metallizer amount, patch the Metallizer out to the Metallizer in, and route Aftertouch to the Metallizer you'll hear the amount go past the knob value when you play a note and apply pressure!


Interesting...

One last question (year, right...  ;) ).

As the Ultra/PW/Metal aren't available as internal modulation sources, will that mean that if I modulate the respecting CV Ultra/PW/Metal Inputs, would I in effect be modulating the modulation sum that is presented at those outputs?

Seems logic (but I'm not near the MatrixBrute right now...).

Thanks!
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: guyaguy on March 19, 2020, 06:07:12 pm
Quote

Take your time; there's a lot to explore!

Not to overload you but it might also be worth knowing that the CV outs extend past the standard max values for some parameters. So if you turn the Metallizer all the way up you'd think that's the maximum possible value. But if you max the Metallizer amount, patch the Metallizer out to the Metallizer in, and route Aftertouch to the Metallizer you'll hear the amount go past the knob value when you play a note and apply pressure!


Interesting...

One last question (year, right...  ;) ).

As the Ultra/PW/Metal aren't available as internal modulation sources, will that mean that if I modulate the respecting CV Ultra/PW/Metal Inputs, would I in effect be modulating the modulation sum that is presented at those outputs?

Seems logic (but I'm not near the MatrixBrute right now...).

Thanks!
You’d be modulating those parameters directly in addition to whatever is happening in the matrix.
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: Lunatic Sound on March 20, 2020, 01:12:32 am
Quote

Take your time; there's a lot to explore!

Not to overload you but it might also be worth knowing that the CV outs extend past the standard max values for some parameters. So if you turn the Metallizer all the way up you'd think that's the maximum possible value. But if you max the Metallizer amount, patch the Metallizer out to the Metallizer in, and route Aftertouch to the Metallizer you'll hear the amount go past the knob value when you play a note and apply pressure!


Interesting...

One last question (year, right...  ;) ).

As the Ultra/PW/Metal aren't available as internal modulation sources, will that mean that if I modulate the respecting CV Ultra/PW/Metal Inputs, would I in effect be modulating the modulation sum that is presented at those outputs?

Seems logic (but I'm not near the MatrixBrute right now...).

Thanks!

If I get your question right, the answer is no. I am not sure, if I do, though. But modulation coming in to e.g. Metallizer In will not change modulation being output at Metallizer Out. It will be summed with the actual values turning the Metallizer Knob only.
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: SingleCell on March 21, 2020, 08:38:16 am
To further complicate this, slightly.... 

Modulating the PW, or Metallizer parameters with, say, a LFO Sine or Triangle, is effectively turning the PW and Metallizer knobs automatically.  But the Ultra behaves differently.  Turning up the Ultra knob increases the volume of the extra Sawtooth Wave(s) that create that sound, but modulating the Ultra parameter seems to alter the phase of those extra Sawtooth waves, rather than changing the level of them, like the Knob does.  If you modulate the Ultra parameter, while Ultra knob is turned all the way down, nothing happens.
Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: Lunatic Sound on March 21, 2020, 09:10:44 am
Yeah, it's wild.

Also check this thread:

https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=93412.0

Title: Re: What's exactly being sent through CV Ultra, PW & Metal?
Post by: DrJustice on March 21, 2020, 09:51:10 pm
And another thread with some related info:

https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=93440