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Topic Summary

Posted by: Togo
« on: March 08, 2006, 10:58:40 pm »

Just thought I'd throw in my two-penny worth.

Modelling a physical synthesizer like the Modular Mg or the CS80 requires non-linear algebraic and non-linear ordinary differential equations (as well as their linear cousins for those linear moments in the dynamics). Arturia have done a brilliant job with those synths.

Modelling an accoustic instrument, particularly a wind instrument, is totally different. A dynamical model requires the solution of a mixture of non-linear algebraics and non-linear partial differential equations. These equations are multi-dimensional, catering for at least the three dimensions of the air flow plus the all important sound/pressure waves (which are non-linear of course). To do this in real time, with all the interfaces between the different parts of the instrument (the air inside the sax vibrating the body and those vibrations being correctly modelled) is the stuff of post-doc research and super computers. Arturia, with their tame French University team, must have cut massive corners to get a 'playable' instrument that responds as quickly as Brass reportedly does. They should be congratulated on producing a fantastic model -- but it will be light-years away from a real sonic copy of the physical instrument.
Posted by: htrla57
« on: February 20, 2006, 09:16:03 pm »

I am looking for a PM synth with a decent sax sound to use with my WX7. Unfortunately, Yamaha does not seem to sell the celebrated VL70m here in Europe. So this Brass sounds good as a possibility, but how does it sound in practice? I still haven't managed to activate the licence of the demo. To me, the sax in the music samples provided really sounds like a baritone kazoo. There is some enjoyable expressiveness there, but the basic sound is just wrong. So instead of arguing about what PM can do with practice, why can't somebody post a link to a more decent example of a sax sound from the Brass.

I don't, by the way, completely buy the argument about practice. I know from experience what is involved in playing a real sax, how it reacts to all kinds of things. But using a wind controller, I can actually only control breath and lip pressure. There is no way for the PM synth to be aware of my mouth cavity, how open my throat is, and what kind of pressure I am actually applying to the reed.  I agree that it takes practice to really use the synth in an expressive way, but the basic sound should be there. Things would be different with controllers that actually measure a lot more physical parameters, but we don't have such.
Posted by: jaxtone
« on: January 05, 2006, 01:58:04 pm »

Hi all!

... there must be certain rules for how you communicate with your opponents even in this forum... if there are no rules we might put them up ourselfes and that means that we all gotta listen to everyones opinion even if it sucks. And if you start bullying a people in person debates like this can be terrible unfocused. Its more up to the fact you produce to convince someone else.

I think its 100 percent ok with satire, humour and ironi to bend and twitch your arguments. And still I havent been so funny that I spelled my opponents Tony O(b)stinato´s name totally wrong :)

I really dont mind if someone is bitter or grumpy cause I got a few more important things to focus on in my agenda. But just think of it...

J
Posted by: Didz@dron
« on: January 05, 2006, 01:16:25 pm »

Quote from: "Sweep"
Quote from: "child.stratosphere"
Tony you're an idiot ... really one of the most despicable, sad characters i have met in forums all over the web these last 10 years (including IRC)

as one can see in this thread again you keep on stomping out the exact same three phrases, that's all you have to say ... i pitty you ... no, i pitty the people who have to put up with your idiocy and total lack of manners in threads like these ...

don't bother replying, just wanted to say out loud what a lot of people are thinking ...


Well at least Tony has something useful to say, whether or not you like the way he says it.

I find it very hard to believe you've not encountered anyone worse than Tony in ten years on the Internet. You've been very lucky, to say the least.


Right, I spend much time on forums and I must admit it's hard to find a friendly music maker over the net ... Feeling like a "so-called" musician seems to make people getting more and more egocentric  :roll:
Posted by: Sweep
« on: January 05, 2006, 12:48:26 pm »

Quote from: "child.stratosphere"
Tony you're an idiot ... really one of the most despicable, sad characters i have met in forums all over the web these last 10 years (including IRC)

as one can see in this thread again you keep on stomping out the exact same three phrases, that's all you have to say ... i pitty you ... no, i pitty the people who have to put up with your idiocy and total lack of manners in threads like these ...

don't bother replying, just wanted to say out loud what a lot of people are thinking ...


Well at least Tony has something useful to say, whether or not you like the way he says it.

I find it very hard to believe you've not encountered anyone worse than Tony in ten years on the Internet. You've been very lucky, to say the least.
Posted by: Tony Ostinato
« on: January 05, 2006, 11:45:50 am »

well idiot, hmm, i think i introduced a few here to the vl70m whereas noone introduced me to anything new.

its not that unusual for any display of intelligence to garner some hostility in a world where its cool to be stupid.

pity only has one t btw, since you got it wrong twice i figured i help ya.
Posted by: child.stratosphere
« on: January 05, 2006, 11:07:51 am »

Tony you're an idiot ... really one of the most despicable, sad characters i have met in forums all over the web these last 10 years (including IRC)

as one can see in this thread again you keep on stomping out the exact same three phrases, that's all you have to say ... i pitty you ... no, i pitty the people who have to put up with your idiocy and total lack of manners in threads like these ...

don't bother replying, just wanted to say out loud what a lot of people are thinking ...
Posted by: Tony Ostinato
« on: January 05, 2006, 02:09:37 am »

Posted by: omissis
« on: January 05, 2006, 12:09:51 am »

Tony
Well  we're just at the dawn of PM on computer although some very good tries have been made yet with electric pianos and tube technology but Brass is the first into the brass modeling ( as String studio is the first good PMed string program ).
There is a long way to step on for sure and who says , like Armando, that to learn a software isn't worth the effort  shoots straight on his own feet: I repeat, Brass is not for me at the moment because I'm not interested in acoutic instruments except for pianos and percussions, but if I was I could have been very intrigued by Brass, not counting the fact that , even if not being perfectly crafted , I could make it behave like a trumpet-from-deep sea or whatever comes into my mind ( creativity helps, believe me guys !)....what Tony tries to say is that Brass is not an instrument to be played like a synthesizer but like a Brass instrument, the keyboard can provide control but it isn't the only and surely not the best of controllers for such a program and it offers only a % of the expressive possibilities.
Brass is a good start point into the PM software world and has plenty of improvement spaces ; I repeat what I said on another forum to those who threw Brass down the tower with such ease: if any of you can code a better modeled brass instrument, no one prevents you from putting a new emulation on the market, if you can live with samples no one forces you to buy Brass: I bought the CS-80V and I have 3 more softies, one FM, one sampler-rompler, a rhodes model and I feel comfortable with these because I get the sounds I want-the way I want with those and I don't feel the need for more just to be "a la page"....who feels like needing Brass ( and has carefully evaluated it ) then will buy Brass, those who bought it but all in all can live without it will forget it soon :wink:, so please try before you buy and don't waste your HDspace!
Posted by: jaxtone
« on: January 04, 2006, 11:52:17 pm »

Shake Lip Slurs and Glissandos... I know perfectly well what these are even if I am a more street wise player than a school shaped archetype.

Still very impressed by the sounds produced with these instruments even if I must say they must be the ugliest designed pieces in the universe...

... especially this one would go under the category worst case... http://www.patchmanmusic.com/mdt.html is this an UZI or what... if some one ever catch up a weapon like this it would be a completely joke if this guy wasnt a real gunslinger... but thats my private opinion... theres actually enough space for new innovations in this millenium and the last one hasnt been seen yet.

About Arturias ambitions to reach their goals I have never had anything against their work to develope new technical applications, just think the saxophone sounds to much like a giant kazoo and the trumpet has its limitations. I will of course as anyone else in here look forward to next step they take.

J
Posted by: jaxtone
« on: January 04, 2006, 11:38:18 pm »

Just a question... Whats no good?

When you ask me about postmodernism I could easily get away with this link... http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/pomo.html

... but my definition would be a vintage sound with modern arrangements and soundings.

J
Posted by: Sweep
« on: January 04, 2006, 10:55:33 pm »

Quote from: "jaxtone"
I am a live artist / composer and the main goal for me when I compose and arrange music is to let this music being performed live on stage with a 8 piece postmodern swing band.


It's no good; I just have to ask: What's a postmodern swing band?  I keep imagining a swing band reinterpreted by Derrida.
Posted by: Tony Ostinato
« on: January 04, 2006, 10:55:24 pm »

hmmm no sooner does jax change his tone to a more inquisitive, studious one than someone else goes nuts to take his place.

Actually convincing people who wish to use a sampler and who have samplers fill their needs absolutely should be convinced to try other things than AB, so that isnt something im against at all (havent i recommended other things in every post?).

anyways i wanna reward jax for his new improved style with answers as best as i can.

lets look at another area where physics modeling is used, weather forecasting.

weather stations use computers to model the weather, and they make the model try to behave like the real thing. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt.

Weather forecasting models have improved greatly in the last 10 years but they still have a long way to go as they become, with ever stronger computing power, able to model more and more aspects of reality all at once.

Whats important to realize is that physical modeling is really hard because its physics.

it has been easier for plugin makers to model comparatively simpler things like analog circuits and be better recieved, such as the arp2600, Mgs etc.

i have 3 uad-1 cards and im quite pleased with their models as well.

Arturia have in fact made history by making the first ATTEMPT at a brass acoustic physical modeler plugin.

even if you feel it sucks, you cannot deny this is a brave step forward, or even backward with the ultimate intention of moving far forward.

Samplers cheat to get timbre, they simply record the instrument.

EVERYONE HERE GETS THAT SAMPLERS WIN IN THE TIMBRE RACE, CASE CLOSED (for now)

obviously thats a very easy and convenient way to get timbre happening, its been an excellent technological synthesis shortcut to simply be able to copy the basic tones from instruments in samplers, but no sampler can capture the instruments behavior


the wobbling you mentioned for instance is what a real trumpet does, its called a shake, its a vibrato thats extended to spread over the harmonic breaks, its really hard to do realistic shakes on a sampler that will fit the stylistic context. listen to some Louis Armstrong for a lot of this technique.

shakes, lip slurs, glissandos, examples of behaviors.

so i think its accurate to say that samplers are undeniably more powerful in getting the timbre, but its a convenient shortcut they use, but modelers are ALREADY more powerful at doing behaviors.

itd be nice to merge the technologies but noone has found a way. thats why a lot of people are using both.

the demos werent played by a keyboard exactly, they were played with one of these:

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/wx5info.html

or one of these

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/ewi4000s.html

or one of these

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/mdt.html


they were recorded in realtime with no midi editing, thats live.


but the thing about midi is that the it doesnt matter what you use, midi is midi. You can edit in controller data and it should work though it might be tough to simulate the natural intricacies that you get using those wind controllers.


the vl70m is going over 6 years old now, probably more. all that time ive been waiting for the next step.

ive posted, along with others, many times BEGGING for someone anyone to do a PM plugin like the vl70-m all those 6 years. you can search vl70m on the cubase and nuendo and kvr forums for those.

but computers havent been powerful enough until recently. what we are witnessing in arturia brass is the dawn of PM on computer, sure its crude and ugly at the moment. yes i said crude and ugly, but the point is that this is the first step in a technology that, as computers get more powerful, will take over as THE way to do acoustic instrument synthesis.

and no matter how ugly and crude that first step is, it puts arturia in the lead in this field.
Posted by: Armando Rojas
« on: January 04, 2006, 09:51:10 pm »

Congratulations Tony - you have convinced me that yes, Brass is not for me. I don't wish to spend the rest of my life learning one software instrument, especially not when it *is* promoted as one that can be played effectively from a keyboard. Instead, I wil collaborate with real brass players - anyone but you, Tony. Rageaholic egomaniac musicians are plentiful, but so are reasonable good-natured ones like jaxtone.

Armando.
Posted by: jaxtone
« on: January 04, 2006, 05:15:48 pm »

Quote
but heres some demos you should listen to:

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV1.mp3

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV2.mp3


Yeah I have listened... and theres is no doubt this is really great... must say that some parts are fantastic too.

But listen to VL70V1.mp3 and explain these soundglitches and soundmerges that appears in both of your mp3 examples from time to time:

Phraze 1
05:00-06:00 Endphrazing of the trumpet it glitches and sounds like a cross sound between a miniMg and a distorted guitar. Is this produced by a meaning or a defect?

Phraze 2
The introduction sounds trumpet before its switched into an alto. At the end phrazing its also switched back into a trumpet. Great! The next highest note is an E and in the middle of this long tone its wobbling pretty much. Is this also by meaning or a defect?

And in some cases Alto frequenses intrudes in the Tenor register. The same thing happends when instruments are plying along their registers. They kind of merge into other sounds... defects or features?

I am not trying to pick on these examples cause they are both fine... just wonder why it appears. And finally a question... could you manage to produce this without a keyboard... from the inside of a music software instead?
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