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Author Topic: question: does the MB have background tuning?  (Read 9893 times)

BobTheDog

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 01:15:26 pm »
I might have been a little too melodramatic in my wording!

digidisiggi

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2017, 10:43:57 am »
Ok just tested from cold.

At power on OSC 1 and 2 are around 1.5 semitones flat while OSC3 is in tune.

After 5 minutes OSC 1 and OSC 2 have come into tune

All oscillators are around 10 cents flat from the readings I was getting at end of day yesterday.

So it looks like the exponential oscillators need at least 5 minutes to warm up.

If you mess around with the autotune in this period you are looking for trouble,

If i was you I would turn it on, wait 30 minutes and then do the autotune. Check its all in tune with a tuner or by ear.

After that the next time you turn it on wait at least 5 to 10 minutes (do not use autotune) and then check the tuning with a tuner or ear, my guess is that it will then be fine.

so, yesterday i started the MB from cold and had the same experience.

- do not use the autotune command in the first 5 min. Things get even more worse.
- also donīt use autotune when MB is in tune. Sure, there is no need for this. Sometimes (not always)after tuning  the preset sound doesnīt come back (no sound) and you have push the preset again. Donīt be surprised, all the presets of the MB now sounding totally different. No further autotune action can correct this behavior. You have to switch it off and on. Then everything is normal.

If my MB is not defect, i would say it has the most badest autotune implementation compared with my many other analog synth. Hopefully this can be adressed with a firmware update.

On the other side i have to say (if the Brute is in tune), itīs a fantastic synth and imho the brute has character, is easy to use and very well build.

Siggi

BobTheDog

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 10:46:17 am »
After tuning and getting no sound make sure the "Panel" button is not lit, if it is tap it so the light goes out.

Does the sound return then?

digidisiggi

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 11:31:24 am »
After tuning and getting no sound make sure the "Panel" button is not lit, if it is tap it so the light goes out.

Does the sound return then?

no. Tweaking knobs doesnīt help either.

BobTheDog

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 11:50:54 am »
Have you tried the master volume, I have had it where this can change. Try taking it all the way down and all the way up?

Edit just tried repeatedly autotuneing, after 4 times I got silence. The master volume trick fixed it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 11:53:12 am by BobTheDog »

Bruno@arturia

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 02:46:04 pm »
Hello,
I guess this topic needs a bit a clarification because it's a bit complex.
VCO 1 and 2 are true exponential VCOs. That means analog circuitry is doing the linear CV (1V/octave) to exponential frequency(double the frequency for each octaves) conversion. This kind of converter always have temperature dependency so it needs to be either compensated, either temperature stabilized. If dependency is not voided properly the slope will be wrong, for example 1 octave will not be 1 octave, but 1 octave and 10 cent.
So if C3 is a perfect C, you will have C4=+10cents, C5=+20cents, C6=+30cents ...

For compensation it is usually a Tempco that is used. A Tempco is a kind of resistor that has a known temperature dift. If you pick a dift value opposite to the VCO dift, it ends up more or less stable. More or less because both have tolerances in their drift value, plus tempco and the VCO components need to be perfectly thermally coupled otherwise they are not at the same temperature.
Using tempco has an advantage and a drawback: they drift very slowly, but drift even when not powered. That means that if a machine stays (even powered off) always at the same room temperature it will be very fast is tune. But if you expose the machine to a temperature change, it will be very long to recover. So it is very difficult to use it in live situations

When using stabilization you use some kind of heater and sensor that ensure the VCO core always runs at a constant temperature much higher that room temperature.
At power up this oven needs few minutes to warm up but when it's locked, it can handle room temperature changes( in a reasonable extend of course).

MatrixBrute VCO1 and VCO2 (and MiniBrute and MicroBrute) are oven based exponential VCOs. That means you have to let them warmup up to 5 minutes. Once locked the slope will be fine (1 octave is a true octave).

But then comes the pitch offset issue. When the octaves are right, you now want the notes to be perfect. The offset is what you basically control with fine tune.
Because it is analog, all the components has a little temperature dependency(much lower than VCO core slope), so all the internal CVs have a bit of temperature dependency too. It's definitely not noticeable to control a VCA, but for a VCO pitch we have around 2 cents per °C .

Usually you want to be in perfect tune with other instruments with fine tune at center position. That is the purpose of "AutoTune" in MatrixBrute. It voids the pitch offset to ensure that absolute pitch is right.

So the good way to use the autotune is : wait at leat 5 minutes for the ovens to warm up(using autotune before that will be point less, because the slope will still evolve).
Once ovens are locked (1 octave = 1octave), then you may use auto tune to void any pitch offset.

At constant room temperate, you may have to autotune again during the first 30minutes (time to get a stable and homogeneous internal temperature).
if room temperature changes, then autotune again...

By the way we have no background autotune, for example when the VCA is closed, because as we've got external CV inputs for the VCA and VCO we don't even know if the VCA is closed, or if the pitch is being controlled by an external source...

OK but what about VCO3?
This one is a linear VCO, that means it does not do the exponential conversion itself, it is fed with a CV that is already exponential (conversion is made by firmware). No analog expo converter means almost not temperature drift, so at startup it is almost immediately in tune. And it does not need to be autotuned... Magic!
But (because their is always a but :), no expo converter means that this kind of VCO can't do exponential frequency modulation based on linear CV, so you cant' directly control it from an external  CV. If you feed it with another VCO on the CV input, you will get linear modulation of the pitch instead of exponential (what you get on matrixBrute in the AudioMod section)

You can still use a microcontroller to sample the external CV input, make it exponential and generate a new expo CV, but then bandwitdh is limited by sample rate, so again no full audio range modulation available...
That is why VCO3 is only a source of AudioMods and never a destination.




Bruno
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Bruno@arturia

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 02:50:58 pm »


Whatever Moog did with the Sub 37 should be the model for VCO stability and calibration... :-p

I think it's same kind as MatrixBrute VCO3...
Bruno
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digidisiggi

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2017, 02:59:35 pm »
thanks Bruno for the detailed explanation and clarification to the tuning topic. This helps to treat the MB right.

best, Siggi

Bruno@arturia

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 03:40:13 pm »


If my MB is not defect, i would say it has the most badest autotune implementation compared with my many other analog synth. Hopefully this can be adressed with a firmware update.


We are currently investigating but it seems behavior could be random in some case, looks like bug indeed. we will let you know
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 09:03:01 pm by Bruno@arturia »
Bruno
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DrJustice

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2017, 06:51:50 pm »
...
OK but what about VCO3?
This one is a linear VCO, that means it does not do the exponential conversion itself, it is fed with a CV that is already exponential (conversion is made by firmware). No analog expo converter means almost not temperature drift, so at startup it is almost immediately in tune. And it does not need to be autotuned... Magic!
...
Can it still be autotuned or calibrated in some other way (other calibration routine, trimmer, ...)? It's analogue so it could be offset relative to the autotuned VCO 1 and 2, or...(?)

Re Sub 37 tuning:
I think it's same kind as MatrixBrute VCO3...
OK :) With regards to the above, the Sub 37 has a calibration routine, and it is needed sometimes.

F5D

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2017, 08:08:53 am »
Thanks Bruno for explaining the details of how the tuning control is implemented in the MatrixBrute. As I mentioned earlier, I have got used to this with the Andromeda that out of tune is expected for the first 15 min. Also my MFB Dominion 1 is badly out of tune for the first 15 min too, but gets in tune eventually. Will get my Brute today, so I can report in the following days, how that unit gets / stays in tune. I have no problem of slight variation +/- 3 cents of the tuning. I buy this synth for character. Let's see...

Duchemole

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2017, 12:53:16 pm »
so it has no background tuning ? pretty strange, as i've noticed some funny things too about tuning, i'll write today a detailed post about all things that i've noticed on my unit

F5D

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2017, 10:03:22 pm »
Ok, I have now a couple of hours experience with the MatrixBrute. I must mention that I have not yet updated the firmware. It seems that when the synth has been on for 1-2 hours (the next day after bringing the synth in the room, not from cold), and running auto tune, the Osc 1 and 2 are a few cents off from each other, when the tune knobs are in the detented mid positions. I need to adjust Osc 1 down by a few cents, maybe 5-10 cents, by ear to get the beating minimized. The beating is slightly random in nature, different from other synths that I have used. I still need to install the latest firmware, but I wish there is possibility to adjust the tuning so that after the unit has fully warmed up, the auto tune would result in same pitch for Osc 1 and 2, when the knobs are in their detented positions.

The whole autotune process is really fast, like 1 second. I am wondering, what does it check when doing it, and does it override the current knob positions for coarse and fine tune, while doing it, and then return back to the current knob or pitch values of the program loaded? It would be useful to have a calibration procedure for the coarse and fine tune knob center positions, where the user should first turn the coarse and fine tune knobs to the detented center positions, and then save these in the operating system and the auto tune function would use these values as target values when operating the auto tune. Now, I suspect that my MatrixBrute thinks that the pots are not in the center positions, even if they are, and apply tuning based on some preset values for the tune potentiometers, during which the synth checks some control voltages based on preset voltage or digital values, and not the actual voltages set by the tune potentiometers? I would expect that while having the coarse and fine tune knobs in the detented center positions, running the auto tune would result in pitch within +/- 1 cent between Oscs 1 and 2. Now they are 5-10 cents off right after running auto tune.

Bruno@Arturia, is it possible to calibrate the actual coarse and fine tune knob detented center positions by the user, so that the autotune would result in equal pitch for both exponential oscillators 1 and 2? If not, please implement this in a future firmware. I believe this is an issue with some of the MatrixBrutes at the moment. I will install the new firmware tomorrow and report, if anything changes.

Edit. Nevermind, I never actually entered the auto tune function properly, please see explanation below. All work ok now with latest firmware and succesfully running the auto tune!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 06:13:20 pm by F5D »

F5D

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2017, 06:10:50 pm »
Ok, a quick but important update about how the MatrixBrute auto tune function should be used properly. I just installed the new firmware. My unit shipped with a firmware with something like 1.0.096 or so. Now it has the 1.1.108 or so. I ran the autotune procedure again now with the new firmware... Or so I thought!! The same result, Oscillators 1 and 2 not in tune with each other. However, I found a solution that might be of help to many others as well!

The instructions in the manual to launch the auto tune procedure are not precise enough, or they kind of are, but depending on how you press the two buttons (Kbd Track + Panel), you may not even get to the auto tune process at all! I was already wondering, why did Arturia design the auto tune function so that every time you use it, you also switch between the Kbd Track and Panel modes. That must be a bug I thought, but the latest firmware does it as well! If you found the same issue when trying to run the auto tune, you did not actually auto tune the synth at all!

At first, I tried to launch the auto tune process by keeping the Kbd Track-button pushed down and shortly after that pressing the Panel button too. Something happened and the audio muted and unmuted, so I thought it ran the auto tune, nice. But at the same time the Kbd Track and Panel buttons switched states too. This happens with the original + updated firmware. This way the synth does not go into the auto tune mode, so no wonder why the "tuning" did not have any effect at all! I tried several different ways of pushing the two buttons, and found how you get to the auto tune mode every time, and do not unnecessarily switch between Kbd Track and Panel modes.

Proper way to start the MatrixBrute Auto Tune proceduce:

Method 1: Press both the Kbd Track and the Panel buttons EXACTLY at the same time and keep them pushed for 1-2 seconds. Then the display starts scrolling a text "Tune..." If the text does not appear, and instead your Kbd Track and Panel buttons switch states and audio mutes and unmutes (due to panel mode change), you did not enter the auto tune mode. Try again.

Method 2 (even better): Press and hold the panel button + then press the Kbd Track button too. Thanks BobTheDog for this method!

Now, my oscillators 1 and 2 are in the same frequency, when all coarse and fine tune knobs are in the center detented positions, nice! I will give an update later about how the tuning stays like that in my room. :)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 06:29:31 pm by F5D »

BobTheDog

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Re: question: does the MB have background tuning?
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2017, 06:14:58 pm »
I think the trick for any of the PANEL shortcuts is to press and hold PANEL then press the shortcut key, so for autotune press and hold PANEL then press "Kbd Track".

 

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