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Author Topic: Brass! True or false?  (Read 26415 times)

Tony Ostinato

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2006, 11:58:27 am »
see, everyone gets your point jax but you dont seem to be getting ours.

as far as demos the trumpet demo on their says enough of what we are talking about.


but i dont get why you ignore that over and over again i confirm that garritan jazz and ni bandstand are what youre looking for.

you have no plans on playing any of these live do you?

the concept of brass is for directly controllable expressiveness that you cant do with a sampler.

for instance post me an example of a sampled trumpet doing the demo licks from arturias site and see if you can come close to that.

You'll get a clue why us more experienced guys dont use samplers and modelers for the same purposes, those purposes are quite different.

id wager this whole post goes over your head too, i dont see why this one would be any different.

but heres some demos you should listen to:

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV1.mp3

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV2.mp3

jaxtone

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Crash boom bang
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2006, 01:02:15 pm »
I just downloaded the demo version of Brass to try out myself instead of guessing of what its capable to... I thought it would work out fine on an old PC version of Logic 5.2 as well... but the only thing that happend was that Brass didnt accept my soundboard. No settings available would make Brass sound even a little bit... just crashed my whole system. Well its just to restart it but no good luck here in trying Ostinatos favourite program.

All the serials and codes were put in as told... so thats not the problem.

J
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Karnaa

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2006, 02:43:01 pm »
Quote from: "Tony Ostinato"
i'd bet anything this guy doesnt know what a vl70-m is and that he thought arturia brass was sample based.

you dont play it with just a keyboard , if thats what you want use sample libraries, you shouldnt have been looking at this in the first place.


now if you had a keyboard and aftertouch and mod wheel and breath control all being played professionally then maybe...


Tony!
I absolutly know about the Yamaha VL-7 etc. and I have used it with and without a breath control etc.I have sold a lot of this,and i think you have made a great job to get it to sound like it,BUT the customer want it to sound like Quantum leap brass etc. and this is not a VST sampler!
How ever I love some of the sound and I recomended you to do this based on the VL soundīs and you have made a really good job on this,how ever this may not be the best thing for THIS customer, but I think we can sell a lot of this!!!

jaxtone

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Karnaa
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2006, 05:00:22 pm »
Hi!

I dont believe this Mr Tony Ostinato really have any permission from Arturia to tell whom is allowed in here... even if it sounds like he actually runs and owns the Arturia company from time to time. He might be a genious in programming your gear but of course not the smoothest company representative I have met during a lifetime. So lets forget about the rude behaviour in future conversations. I just think he is eager telling the world how fantastic he is, and thats ok with me. As an artist to another I just want to finish off by saying theres a subtle distinction between a true genious and a total maniac sometimes.

Since I was shocked by how some of the instruments in Brass sounded at my first visit at my local music shop I first thought most of it was crap. But just because of some people in here that in a gentle and nice way told me how this works I went interested in seeing if I could wash off the sentence "First impression last".

I just downloaded the demo version myself cause I really want to see if parts of Brass is just as bad or good as people say it is. Maybe I havent got what it takes to educate myself in this interface... but I still wants to give it an honest chance.

Got some questions and a conclusions.

Quest:
Can Brass be fully modulated and edited without using a keyboard? I use Logic 5.2 for PC and as I see it all Brass features can be find in there... but this is just a question to get rid of guessing if it might be so that there are limitations working without a keyboard from the inside of Logic.

How are Brass connected to the transcription part within Logic?

In this stage I fell the saxophone is a misery in many ways since it got a metallic-plastic frequense that is very hard to get rid off even if the wooden mouthpiece is used and its modulated as far as I can manage. Is it possible that there is any presettings available that could show off a more realistic tenor saxophone?

Conclusions:

The trombone as I said earlier is excellent in mostly all tonal registers.

The trumpet seems to sound ok when its played softly but the Latino attacks and fff seems to be hard to find in the attack of the sound itself. I suspect there might be a conclusion on this problem as well. Maybe the same solution as in the suggestion below will be the best way to show it.

Its hard to judge by a newcomer if the saxophone might be useful and are able to reach natural sax sounds, but heres a suggestion. In the first hand a serie of presets of realistic Tenor, Alto and Bary settings would be well appriceated.

Secondly, follow up tutorials thats showing how its done will be a valuable time saver for both users and developers. Viewed examples of sampled saxophones in a wide range of areas both as graphic waveforms and with audio sounds available. Attach how it was done with images and attached sound examples that views in which direction and how Arturias Brass managed to reach these natural sounds.

J
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jaxtone

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Tony Ostinato
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2006, 05:42:48 pm »
Quote
but heres some demos you should listen to:

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV1.mp3

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV2.mp3


Yeah I have listened... and theres is no doubt this is really great... must say that some parts are fantastic too.

But listen to VL70V1.mp3 and explain these soundglitches and soundmerges that appears in both of your mp3 examples from time to time:

Phraze 1
05:00-06:00 Endphrazing of the trumpet it glitches and sounds like a cross sound between a minimoog and a distorted guitar. Is this produced by a meaning or a defect?

Phraze 2
The introduction sounds trumpet before its switched into an alto. At the end phrazing its also switched back into a trumpet. Great! The next highest note is an E and in the middle of this long tone its wobbling pretty much. Is this also by meaning or a defect?

And in some cases Alto frequenses intrudes in the Tenor register. The same thing happends when instruments are plying along their registers. They kind of merge into other sounds... defects or features?

I am not trying to pick on these examples cause they are both fine... just wonder why it appears. And finally a question... could you manage to produce this without a keyboard... from the inside of a music software instead?
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Armando Rojas

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2006, 10:18:10 pm »
Congratulations Tony - you have convinced me that yes, Brass is not for me. I don't wish to spend the rest of my life learning one software instrument, especially not when it *is* promoted as one that can be played effectively from a keyboard. Instead, I wil collaborate with real brass players - anyone but you, Tony. Rageaholic egomaniac musicians are plentiful, but so are reasonable good-natured ones like jaxtone.

Armando.

Tony Ostinato

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2006, 11:22:24 pm »
hmmm no sooner does jax change his tone to a more inquisitive, studious one than someone else goes nuts to take his place.

Actually convincing people who wish to use a sampler and who have samplers fill their needs absolutely should be convinced to try other things than AB, so that isnt something im against at all (havent i recommended other things in every post?).

anyways i wanna reward jax for his new improved style with answers as best as i can.

lets look at another area where physics modeling is used, weather forecasting.

weather stations use computers to model the weather, and they make the model try to behave like the real thing. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt.

Weather forecasting models have improved greatly in the last 10 years but they still have a long way to go as they become, with ever stronger computing power, able to model more and more aspects of reality all at once.

Whats important to realize is that physical modeling is really hard because its physics.

it has been easier for plugin makers to model comparatively simpler things like analog circuits and be better recieved, such as the arp2600, moogs etc.

i have 3 uad-1 cards and im quite pleased with their models as well.

Arturia have in fact made history by making the first ATTEMPT at a brass acoustic physical modeler plugin.

even if you feel it sucks, you cannot deny this is a brave step forward, or even backward with the ultimate intention of moving far forward.

Samplers cheat to get timbre, they simply record the instrument.

EVERYONE HERE GETS THAT SAMPLERS WIN IN THE TIMBRE RACE, CASE CLOSED (for now)

obviously thats a very easy and convenient way to get timbre happening, its been an excellent technological synthesis shortcut to simply be able to copy the basic tones from instruments in samplers, but no sampler can capture the instruments behavior


the wobbling you mentioned for instance is what a real trumpet does, its called a shake, its a vibrato thats extended to spread over the harmonic breaks, its really hard to do realistic shakes on a sampler that will fit the stylistic context. listen to some Louis Armstrong for a lot of this technique.

shakes, lip slurs, glissandos, examples of behaviors.

so i think its accurate to say that samplers are undeniably more powerful in getting the timbre, but its a convenient shortcut they use, but modelers are ALREADY more powerful at doing behaviors.

itd be nice to merge the technologies but noone has found a way. thats why a lot of people are using both.

the demos werent played by a keyboard exactly, they were played with one of these:

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/wx5info.html

or one of these

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/ewi4000s.html

or one of these

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/mdt.html


they were recorded in realtime with no midi editing, thats live.


but the thing about midi is that the it doesnt matter what you use, midi is midi. You can edit in controller data and it should work though it might be tough to simulate the natural intricacies that you get using those wind controllers.


the vl70m is going over 6 years old now, probably more. all that time ive been waiting for the next step.

ive posted, along with others, many times BEGGING for someone anyone to do a PM plugin like the vl70-m all those 6 years. you can search vl70m on the cubase and nuendo and kvr forums for those.

but computers havent been powerful enough until recently. what we are witnessing in arturia brass is the dawn of PM on computer, sure its crude and ugly at the moment. yes i said crude and ugly, but the point is that this is the first step in a technology that, as computers get more powerful, will take over as THE way to do acoustic instrument synthesis.

and no matter how ugly and crude that first step is, it puts arturia in the lead in this field.

Sweep

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Re: Masochism
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2006, 11:22:33 pm »
Quote from: "jaxtone"
I am a live artist / composer and the main goal for me when I compose and arrange music is to let this music being performed live on stage with a 8 piece postmodern swing band.


It's no good; I just have to ask: What's a postmodern swing band?  I keep imagining a swing band reinterpreted by Derrida.

jaxtone

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Sweep
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2006, 12:05:18 am »
Just a question... Whats no good?

When you ask me about postmodernism I could easily get away with this link... http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/pomo.html

... but my definition would be a vintage sound with modern arrangements and soundings.

J
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jaxtone

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Tony Ostinato
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2006, 12:19:17 am »
Shake Lip Slurs and Glissandos... I know perfectly well what these are even if I am a more street wise player than a school shaped archetype.

Still very impressed by the sounds produced with these instruments even if I must say they must be the ugliest designed pieces in the universe...

... especially this one would go under the category worst case... http://www.patchmanmusic.com/mdt.html is this an UZI or what... if some one ever catch up a weapon like this it would be a completely joke if this guy wasnt a real gunslinger... but thats my private opinion... theres actually enough space for new innovations in this millenium and the last one hasnt been seen yet.

About Arturias ambitions to reach their goals I have never had anything against their work to develope new technical applications, just think the saxophone sounds to much like a giant kazoo and the trumpet has its limitations. I will of course as anyone else in here look forward to next step they take.

J
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omissis

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2006, 12:36:51 am »
Tony
Well  we're just at the dawn of PM on computer although some very good tries have been made yet with electric pianos and tube technology but Brass is the first into the brass modeling ( as String studio is the first good PMed string program ).
There is a long way to step on for sure and who says , like Armando, that to learn a software isn't worth the effort  shoots straight on his own feet: I repeat, Brass is not for me at the moment because I'm not interested in acoutic instruments except for pianos and percussions, but if I was I could have been very intrigued by Brass, not counting the fact that , even if not being perfectly crafted , I could make it behave like a trumpet-from-deep sea or whatever comes into my mind ( creativity helps, believe me guys !)....what Tony tries to say is that Brass is not an instrument to be played like a synthesizer but like a Brass instrument, the keyboard can provide control but it isn't the only and surely not the best of controllers for such a program and it offers only a % of the expressive possibilities.
Brass is a good start point into the PM software world and has plenty of improvement spaces ; I repeat what I said on another forum to those who threw Brass down the tower with such ease: if any of you can code a better modeled brass instrument, no one prevents you from putting a new emulation on the market, if you can live with samples no one forces you to buy Brass: I bought the CS-80V and I have 3 more softies, one FM, one sampler-rompler, a rhodes model and I feel comfortable with these because I get the sounds I want-the way I want with those and I don't feel the need for more just to be "a la page"....who feels like needing Brass ( and has carefully evaluated it ) then will buy Brass, those who bought it but all in all can live without it will forget it soon :wink:, so please try before you buy and don't waste your HDspace!
Max

a CS-80Vist

Tony Ostinato

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2006, 02:36:37 am »

child.stratosphere

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2006, 11:34:51 am »
Tony you're an idiot ... really one of the most despicable, sad characters i have met in forums all over the web these last 10 years (including IRC)

as one can see in this thread again you keep on stomping out the exact same three phrases, that's all you have to say ... i pitty you ... no, i pitty the people who have to put up with your idiocy and total lack of manners in threads like these ...

don't bother replying, just wanted to say out loud what a lot of people are thinking ...

Tony Ostinato

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2006, 12:12:50 pm »
well idiot, hmm, i think i introduced a few here to the vl70m whereas noone introduced me to anything new.

its not that unusual for any display of intelligence to garner some hostility in a world where its cool to be stupid.

pity only has one t btw, since you got it wrong twice i figured i help ya.

Sweep

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Brass! True or false?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2006, 01:15:26 pm »
Quote from: "child.stratosphere"
Tony you're an idiot ... really one of the most despicable, sad characters i have met in forums all over the web these last 10 years (including IRC)

as one can see in this thread again you keep on stomping out the exact same three phrases, that's all you have to say ... i pitty you ... no, i pitty the people who have to put up with your idiocy and total lack of manners in threads like these ...

don't bother replying, just wanted to say out loud what a lot of people are thinking ...


Well at least Tony has something useful to say, whether or not you like the way he says it.

I find it very hard to believe you've not encountered anyone worse than Tony in ten years on the Internet. You've been very lucky, to say the least.

 

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