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Hardware Instruments => MiniBrute => MiniBrute Technical Questions - FAQ => Topic started by: eole on January 20, 2013, 12:05:33 am

Title: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: eole on January 20, 2013, 12:05:33 am
hello,

some times, i hear big clicks at start of notes.
it may occur even with smooth attacks on both adsr.
if i let an arp turn on and on, it happens from time to time...

is anybody have the same problem ?

 ???

thank you :)

edit : this is a picture from my D.A.W. with one of these :
(http://img.audiofanzine.com/image.php?lang=fr&identifier=image&size=normal&module=user&userPhoto_id=252961)
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on January 21, 2013, 01:51:42 pm
Hi,
are you using the latest firmware, 1.0.2.1 available from here:

http://www.arturia.com/evolution/smf/index.php?topic=12334.0

can you post an audio sample you the click, so that I can hear it?

How often does it happen? more or less.

Does it depend on the arp mode you use or notes you play?

thanks
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: eole on January 21, 2013, 04:17:06 pm
bonjour, (je continue en anglais au cas oł je ne serais pas le seul dans ce cas)

no, i'm using the 1.0.1 version (i prefered to wait for the official release of the new version. is it a bad idea ?)

this is an audio file with two differents clicks (on the attack) :
http://audioblog.arteradio.com/minibrutal/frontUser.do?method=getPost&postId=3054960&blogName=minibrutal (http://audioblog.arteradio.com/minibrutal/frontUser.do?method=getPost&postId=3054960&blogName=minibrutal)

it may occur 3 times per minutes or only 2 times in ten minutes...
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: eole on January 22, 2013, 08:34:15 pm
it seems that the clicks occurs more frequently with the lfo in free mode... strange isn't it ?
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: eole on January 22, 2013, 09:11:08 pm
i've just updated to 1.0.2 and the problem is still here  :-\

(sorry for the flood)
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: eole on January 22, 2013, 10:37:55 pm
just found that these clicks are here only when the aftertouch is assigned on the cutoff (even ih arp hold mode, without touching the keyboard anymore).
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: beefinator on January 24, 2013, 10:09:36 pm
do you maybe have any stray aftertouch messages recorded in your DAW or whatever?  Easy to accidentally do that.

if you're not using aftertouch, just flick the switch off, problem solved.  Otherwise, check in your DAW, I dunno.
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: eole on January 25, 2013, 11:39:36 am
thank you for your help :)
but i've already thought about it ;)

my problem : these clicks occurs even with the arp in hold mode (and at that time, i don't send aftertouch messages at all).
yes, i can (and i already do that) switch off.

but it also means that in arp mode "on"  i can't play with the aftertouch to modulate the filter... it's just a function i like who disapear...
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: eole on February 01, 2013, 07:18:07 pm
still no idea ?
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on February 06, 2013, 11:55:14 am
Hi,
maybe it's a loose cable inside? That could explain the randomness, and very strange correlation with the aftertouch.
Can you open the machine and take a look inside, especially at the two flat ribbon cables.
I enclosed the Technote to properly open the machine.
Let me know...
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: konspirativ on February 06, 2013, 03:47:00 pm
Hmm, I just tried running the arp hold with aftertouch set to cutoff, and noticed mine does the exact same thing too. I'm also on update 1.0.2.
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: 4thnail on March 01, 2013, 09:08:11 am
Hi all

I've found the same problem; since updating the os to v.2 it only seems to happen when the arp is running with LFO saw wave doubling the beat (i.e. LFO syned to arp, arp rate ~ 9-10 o'clock, LFO rate at ~ 2-4 oc'clock.

An audible click occurs apparently at random, certainly not in time with the cycling arp. I've used an isolated power supply to exclude other possible surge sources (shower, fridge etc). It might run for fifteen seconds, or a minute, or two minutes, then just when I think I've got a clean take - 'click!'

Any advice, Bruno?

Apart from this little glitch, it's an amazing machine  :)

All best

4N
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on March 11, 2013, 10:21:17 am
that's weird inded .... I will check this soon and let you know.
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on March 26, 2013, 02:05:58 am
I'm getting this clicking too.  Very annoying.

It seems to occur most frequently when the pulse wave is in use.   It does not appear to be signal level-dependent, as lowering the level on the mixer to under 50% doesn't make the pops or clicks go away.

The clicking I get is most prevalent when I'm moving the mod wheel to control cutoff.  It sounds almost as if something is shorting out as the mod wheel is waggled up and down, and the clicks usually only happens in the lower half of the mod wheel's travel.  I should mention too that my pitch and mod wheels are not perfect straight or perpendicular to the chassis.  They came from the factory with a slight (perhaps 5 degree angle) tilt.  Might that have something to do with it?
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on March 26, 2013, 09:36:22 am
Hi,
can one of you, post a picture of the front panel, and an audio sample of theses clicks? It would be a great help to figure this out.

Thanks
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on March 26, 2013, 11:10:16 am
I don't have a photo handy, but you can hear it in the first minute of this clip:

https://soundcloud.com/christopherwinkels/minibrute-01

It occurs at 0:07, 0:08, 0:12, 0:22



Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on March 26, 2013, 12:09:11 pm
Here's a photo showing the "lean" to the left of the mod wheel.  It's definitely more noticeable in person than in pics. 

Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on March 26, 2013, 01:55:36 pm
Tilted wheels should not be a problem except if they scratch on the iron. During assembly, it's sometime pretty hard to get them perfectly aligned.

For theses clicks, if I have a good understanding, it happens when you are using either modwheel either aftertouch.
Would that be possible that you have an other device or the daw itself sending CCs to the MB? If controlled by two sources (build in and an other external) modwheel value will jump for one to the other.
Does it happens when modwheel is at minimum value and you don't touch it?
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on March 26, 2013, 11:21:18 pm
For theses clicks, if I have a good understanding, it happens when you are using either modwheel either aftertouch.

That's correct.

Quote
Would that be possible that you have an other device or the daw itself sending CCs to the MB?

No, all sounds are manually played; no CC info is coming out of the DAW.  If the aftertouch is having an effect it's because I'm manually pressing the keys harder with my right hand.  Similarly the mod wheel is being manipulated with my left hand.  The DAW solely records the audio and in no way provides any MIDI or CV signals. 

Also worth pointing out:  I'm hearing the pops and clicks both over headphones when playing "live" and later when playing the recorded audio back through the DAW, and the headphones are not monitoring the DAW's input, they're plugged directly into the Minibrute.  In other words there's no chance that the DAW itself is introducing the clicks into the audio.

Quote
Does it happens when modwheel is at minimum value and you don't touch it?

Not that I've experienced.

I will try tonight to record some more audio with longer "drone" type sounds and see if I can replicate the problem again.
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on March 26, 2013, 11:42:21 pm
Okay, that took less time than I thought.

This was a very simple patch (see photo of the settings below).  It's basically a square wave, with one note held down, lowpass filter about 20% of the way open, no resonance, no LFO action, and absolutely no modulation other than me using the mod wheel to adjust filter cutoff frequency.

https://soundcloud.com/christopherwinkels/minibrute-clicks

You can hear the clicks in the sound quite easily.  They seem much more common when on the downward sweep of the mod wheel, which suggests to me there's something electro-mechanically wrong with it.

Here's the patch itself:


Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on March 27, 2013, 02:06:24 pm
On you sound clip it looks like their is a point, on the modwheel(near zero?), where value jumps to max for a short time. It does happend each time when moving fast.
Can you find it if you increase modwheel slowly? can you find a specific point, or is it random positions?

Can you log Midi outputs using MidiOX on PC, or MidiMonitor on MAC, and send to me as a text file? That would be very useful. Let me know if you don't know how to do that.

I see 2 solutions, either your modwheel calibration is bad (can be fix by software), either you modwheel is faulty, it needs to be changes.


Thanks
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on March 28, 2013, 12:58:43 am
On you sound clip it looks like their is a point, on the modwheel(near zero?), where value jumps to max for a short time. It does happend each time when moving fast.
Can you find it if you increase modwheel slowly? can you find a specific point, or is it random positions?

Can you log Midi outputs using MidiOX on PC, or MidiMonitor on MAC, and send to me as a text file? That would be very useful. Let me know if you don't know how to do that.

I see 2 solutions, either your modwheel calibration is bad (can be fix by software), either you modwheel is faulty, it needs to be changes.


Thanks

Sorry, I don't have a MIDI interface or any way of getting MIDI data into the computer.  Like I said, the DAW is audio only.

Here's me moving the mod wheel slowly:

http://youtu.be/pc2dzK-ursk

It does appear to at some point jump to maximum value (i.e. opening the filter to 100%) so it is reasonable to assume it's a faulty mod wheel.  Is this something the user can easily swap out, or does it need to be returned to the point of sale?

Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: beefinator on March 29, 2013, 04:07:31 pm
Silly you, you have a USB-MIDI interface, the Minibrute is one!   :D

you just have to select the right device in the DAW.  Or, in the programs suggested by Bruno.  They're standalone programs.
The minibrute, when connected via USB, will show up as two devices: one is in and out from the machine itself, the other is the in and out coming from the midi ports in the back.
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on March 29, 2013, 04:48:59 pm
hi Christopher Winkels,
hard to be sure from your video, but it could be a calibration issue.
please find enclosed a zip file with needed software on detailed process in PDF.
It's very easy and fast but you will need to run it on PC.

if it still doesn't work properly, you can try it again, but instead of setting the wheel at min and max, slighty move the wheel, let say at 1% and 99% of the range.

Keep in mmind that this process calibrate both wheel, so don't forget to move both at the same time, as requested in the software

Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on March 29, 2013, 06:26:49 pm
Sorry, I'm on a Mac and that software says it needs a PC running XP, Vista, or Windows 7.

Do you have another option?
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on April 03, 2013, 11:44:24 am
Sorry, I'm on a Mac and that software says it needs a PC running XP, Vista, or Windows 7.

Do you have another option?

"Bueller?  Bueller?  Anyone?"
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on April 04, 2013, 10:29:59 am
I only have a pc version it supposed to be used at the factory. Don't you know someone with a pc? you'll need it only for 5 minutes
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on April 21, 2013, 02:16:39 am
I'm pleased to report that despite taking a couple of weeks to get my hand on a suitably equipped Windows machine the software fix has worked.

Thanks, Bruno!
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: stevism on April 21, 2013, 02:48:21 am
i don't need this software at the moment, but i would really love if there were plans for a mac version as well, as i am almost always working with mac os

Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Christopher Winkels on April 23, 2013, 01:23:24 am
i don't need this software at the moment, but i would really love if there were plans for a mac version as well, as i am almost always working with mac os

Although I was able to fix my issue I do agree with you.  The idea that a software patch for a musical instrument should be Windows only is a bit shortsighted.  I know these things cost money to program, but synth players are probably overrepresented in the Mac owning population. 

Anyway, it was easy to do once I got ahold of a Windows machine.
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: vailsy on May 02, 2013, 05:00:06 am
I am also encountering this problem but near the max of the modulation wheel range. I tried the software calibration but the problem still persists..
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Bruno@arturia on May 06, 2013, 09:44:02 am
Quote
I am also encountering this problem but near the max of the modulation wheel range. I tried the software calibration but the problem still persists..
When doing calibration, try not set modwheel at real mechanical maximum, but only around  90%-95%. I may help in your case.
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: Koshdukai on July 16, 2014, 08:55:05 pm
I noticed that my Pitch Wheel wasn't able to reach the full 12 semitone bending when the Bend Range was set to that. Mod Wheel worked/works perfectly so I thought it was an inevitable factory (hardware) miscalibration, which I honestly learned to live with since I rarely require any -/+12 pitch bending.

Today, while using the MiniBrute as a MIDI controller (since it's now the closest keyboard I have and almost always on) I've noticed that moving the Pitch Bend wheel and then letting it rest at "0", the last value it sent was -1 instead of 0.

The smallest positive value I'm able to send is +4 ("E0 04 40") and resting the Pitch Bend at its default center position always sends -1 ("E0 7F 3F") instead of 0 ("E0 00 40").
Edit: I was able to get +1 and +9 but never 0, while trying to move the wheel up as little as possible.

This made me do some searching which led me to this thread, fortunately :)

I tried the calibration utility and after a few tries (which is kinda strange. It should work the 1st time, right?) and some turning the MiniBrute OFF/ON I was able to fix the issue I accepted already but I'm grateful it is fixed: Being able to reach +12 semitone when Bend Range is >=12. This was great.

Problem is, it didn't fix the Pitch Bend center not sending "E0 00 40". It's still sending "E0 7F 3F" i.e. -1, out of the range -8192..+8191 i.e. "E0 00 00".."E0 7F 7F" which I just confirmed, MiniBrute is now able to reach.


Since I'm on the subject, I'm not sure if this has something to do with it or if it's an expected behavior:

The Bend Range knob effectively only works between the 5th line marker and the 18th marker (from a total of 19 line markers, the 10th being the center).

From below the 1st marker to the 5th I get a bend of +/-1 semitone and from the 18th upward I get the 12 semitone bending.

Some semitone values happen on 2 markers or between them, like 10th and 11th do the same -/+6 semitone or the 13th sometimes gets the -/+7 or -/+8 depending that its just a bit over that 13th marker, etc.

So, I'm ok with this "weird scaling" since this is an analog "beast" and things can't possibly work 100% like digitally controlled synths, but I was hoping to get the Pitch Bend center to 0 working, since that part of the synth is digital (right?).

Is this something still fixable through the calibration software utility ? :)


Edit2: This thread really needs a new title it seriously derailed into off-topic ;)
Title: Re: click heard at start of some trigs
Post by: tannhauser on October 04, 2014, 06:37:44 pm
I have the exact same 'clicking sound' problem !
It can happen 5 times in a minute or not happen in 1 day, so it's hard to tell what causes it.
I'm pretty sure it's not caused by the mod wheel, for the aftertouch I'm not sure...